Can we please ban advertisements for selling clears from PF?

[Lunavi]

But... why do they have to prove it? They don't have to build a court case to ban RMT perpetrators who are trying to circumvent the rules. It's SE's own privately owned platform so there should be nothing stopping a GM from infiltrating the discord, being given the price and being like. "Surprise! You're all banned!"

Actually, why don't they just do it arbitrarily as soon as they see the PF entry? Any action against RMT is better than inaction.

I said that some pages ago, because it would look extremely bad if someone started to post on forums about getting banned for no reason in ToS at all without SE being able to back themselves up. The rage we see now about people who are upset because they get banned for "minor" offenses such as tossing profanity and slurs left and right would be a breeze compared to the reaction from something like this, and it could hurt customer trust as no one would dare to pay sub for a game when the picture is painted that you can get banned for no reason at all.

I mean, how safe would you feel if they started to ban people without them breaking ToS?

I think it's honestly just silly people would shell that much money for any of these clears.

XIV is a game where everything becomes easier overtime due to IL increasing, more levels being adding, potency increasing, more utility being offered, and honestly just the idea that we run through the SAME content so often you'll have plenty of time to shill into it to practice to breakup the norm.

The 1st tier savage gear is going to be outdated as soon as 5.2 in Jan/Feb and the only thing bringing people back would really be the completionist sake or just the mount. Past that everything else you can grab overtime as weapon augmentation tokens become available outside Savage.

Yeah, I can't get people paying money for clears, for that money I could buy myself food to last me those 6 months that gear is going to last me. But people spend money on what they spend money on. I can to an even lesser extend grasp why people pay heavy money to poison themselves, but still a large part of the world does this.

[Vnolan]

I mean, how safe would you feel if they started to ban people without them breaking ToS?

There is no rule against posting parses in chat. If someone does post them, SE assumes they were parsing, despite having no proof. How many complaints have you seen from players being penalized as a result?

If you make certain remarks to the rest of the party right before you plan to leave a duty and take a penalty but your power or internet goes out, you could be penalized for attempting to avoid the 30 minute lockout. Again, no proof here and SE will assume.

Not being able to prove anything because communication occurs on third-party apps goes both ways. How would someone prove they were innocent? If so-called innocent players were getting scooped up, that means the actual RMTers would be gone, so you wouldn't see too much opposition to it.

[swiss_Momo]

except that there is no chance for a "legit" clear seller to get falsely banned unless they deliberately write their PF listing like a RMT one.
There is ZERO need to move the discussion to discord/outside the game RIGHT AWAY unless you plan to engage in RMT. If a discord should be required for VC, call-outs ect, then there is enough space to write so in the PF. And there is also enough space to write out something like "for Gil only" in the PF. (I have actually seen such a PF listing during the last month)

[Barraind]

There is ZERO need to move the discussion to discord/outside the game RIGHT AWAY unless you plan to engage in RMT.

Of course there is. Its for the same reason I move any questions about tradeskilling away from the game client.

Our chat system is ABYSMAL compared to discord, slack, smoke signals, text messages or carrier pigeons. It cant handle multiple item links in a line, it cant handle item links in a line of text, it reverts to your default channel if you link an item in a response to someone using the reply keyboard shortcut (which means its just awful to send tells with links) it automatically scrolls to the bottom of a chat window as soon as ANY new text is added to that window, and you're overly restricted both on text length and content. We're also limited to 4 text windows and don't have an option for separate windows for tells from individual players (you know, things that have been standard in MMO's for a decade or more)

Its easier and faster to say 'poke me on discord at barraind.####' than it is to attempt to hold any conversation about anything important using in game methods. I can also say 'f**k that' in discord without risking a suspension.

[Lunavi]

There is no rule against posting parses in chat. If someone does post them, SE assumes they were parsing, despite having no proof. How many complaints have you seen from players being penalized as a result?

If you make certain remarks to the rest of the party right before you plan to leave a duty and take a penalty but your power or internet goes out, you could be penalized for attempting to avoid the 30 minute lockout. Again, no proof here and SE will assume.

Not being able to prove anything because communication occurs on third-party apps goes both ways. How would someone prove they were innocent? If so-called innocent players were getting scooped up, that means the actual RMTers would be gone, so you wouldn't see too much opposition to it.

There is a rule against using third party tools for the game, and by posting parsers you are literally in game admitting to using them one way or another, as how else would you be possible to post them? This is the huge difference, it is said IN GAME. This is why streamers are not getting banned left and right for using parsers on stream.

[BristolRuss]

There is a rule against using third party tools for the game, and by posting parsers you are literally in game admitting to using them one way or another, as how else would you be possible to post them? This is the huge difference, it is said IN GAME. This is why streamers are not getting banned left and right for using parsers on stream.

If someone was uploading the runs to FFLogs you could go grab the numbers from there. You don't need to be the person running ACT to be able to see and grab the results.

[HyoMinPark]

Case in point, thank you, no one saying they have to discuss payment terms on Discord is selling for just gil, there any many other examples of this on Reddit as well. I have a feeling people who don’t want to ban PFs that are demanding people go on Discord to discuss payment are RMT themselves.

No. It’s simply that they recognize the issues behind blindly banning players with no proof that they are actually participating in RMT. You would be acting purely on an assumption with no proof or evidence behind it. Unfortunately, the GMs/STF don’t want to accept third-party screenshots, like the one Alpha linked due to the fear of them being manipulated. But that’s a separate issue entirely.

Trying to insinuate that people who say “you can’t just ban the PFs because there’s no evidence proving any wrong-doing” support and/or participate in RMT is wrong on your part. It’s just like saying that those who say “I’m not bothered by those who buy/sell clears” buy or sell clears themselves: a baseless assumption and unnecessary ad hominem.

If someone was uploading the runs to FFLogs you could go grab the numbers from there. You don't need to be the person running ACT to be able to see and grab the results.

Even discussing FFLogs in-game comes with a risk. And there’s no way to prove that you got the numbers from the site or weren’t using a parser yourself. You posted information you “aren’t allowed to have”, and that’s what the GMs see when they look at chat logs and reports. Not your browser history of going to FFLogs to pull numbers beforehand.

That’s why people advocate for not talking about it at all. There’s just too much risk involved. In a perfect world, people wouldn’t report you for simply telling someone their damage numbers if they ask about them, or mentioning damage in a polite, constructive. But this is far from a perfect world, and any mention of parsing is construed as a personal attack even by those who aren’t being spoken to about it.

[Vnolan]

No. It’s simply that they recognize the issues behind blindly banning players with no proof that they are actually participating in RMT.

Where are people getting the idea that SE would ban players out of the blue? If they decided to take action against it they would make an announcement on the lodestone indicating a change in policy and GMs would provide warnings. Anyone banned would have been well aware of the change and would have been asking for it at that point.

It's not like legit groups wouldn't be able to sell, they just couldn't use PF to advertise. Chat (which has a working blacklist function) and the internet would still be viable.

[Lambdafish]

Of course there is. Its for the same reason I move any questions about tradeskilling away from the game client.

You also forgot the fact that there are many people in a discord group that would likely be offline on XIV.

If I leave a legit sell party in PF and AFK. So long as they follow the link and post in the discord, anyone who is part of the sale group can take that persons request without needing to be ingame. Convenience is as much a factor in leaving an immediate discord link and is just as likely a scenario as RMT (if not more likely so long as you aren't a cynic).

You see this kind of behavior everywhere, from FC invites to static invites to selling crafted items. Discord is straight up more convenient for the party organizer, regardless of intent.

Basically, what I'm trying to get across in all my posts in this thread: SE changing anything in the ToS or doing anything to ban PF sellers that look legit will simply harm those who are innocent and not the RMT sellers.

I have a couple party finder QOL suggestions from another topic if you haven't read them:

1. Allow players to right-click on a party finder name and click "Add to Blacklist" if the PF description is not to the players' liking.

2. The parties of the players on the blacklist should go on the back end of the party list where the locked duties are.

This is the best idea I have seen in this thread. It won't get innocent people banned, and fixes the supposed inconvenience that these parties cause people.

Edit: I just tested this, the first one is possible if you send a random tell to the person (or join the persons party if they havent set the ilvl to 999) and blacklist them that way, what happens is the party becomes greyed out (shown in the below screenshot). The simple QoL change of making it so BL people appear on the bottom would be great.

[Vnolan]

Basically, what I'm trying to get across in all my posts in this thread: SE changing anything in the ToS or doing anything to ban PF sellers that look legit will simply harm those who are innocent and not the RMT sellers.

This is the best idea I have seen in this thread. It won't get innocent people banned, and fixes the supposed inconvenience that these parties cause people.

They wouldn't be "innocent" if they were performing actions that were against the revised ToS. You say "innocent" but then the ads you show both already violate the ToS as it is now as account piloting (required for Ultimates, BA and Eureka) is prohibited. I don't think I've seen a single "legit" ad since the expansion launched.