Is Blm gonna be the only accepted range option now? :(

[Rathael]

I tend to find a lot of responses on the forums include pretty much non-existent examples of play behavior. In all my time doing PF savage I have not seen any group lock stuff like 3 melee and BLM... especially where most fights you can have maximum of 2 melee DPS before the third melee has to occupy some position at range that causes him to lose uptime.

Currently the DPS you find on FF logs across all eden's gate parses is starting to look healthy since 5.08.

- MNK and BLM are in a good place, as discussed. SAM is better since 5.08 but still needs some time for the logs to balance out... and may need more potency increases to put it on-par with BLM and MNK. We can expect this in 5.1

- The remaining support classes are all roughly, give or take, 1k median DPS behind the personal DPS classes. I feel RDM could use some love since Resurrection is quite a pitiful utility for actual clearing. RDM already suffers pdps for resurrection in the first place, so it should not sacrifice any pDPS for having this utility.

- DRG is currently doing the personal DPS of BLM whilst also bringing litany and dragon sight. DRG is exceptionally powerful at the moment and arguably the only really "overpowered" DPS at the moment. If you remove DRG from the equation, you can see that the situation is actually very well balanced right now.

[ForteNightshade]

I tend to find a lot of responses on the forums include pretty much non-existent examples of play behavior. In all my time doing PF savage I have not seen any group lock stuff like 3 melee and BLM... especially where most fights you can have maximum of 2 melee DPS before the third melee has to occupy some position at range that causes him to lose uptime.

Currently the DPS you find on FF logs across all eden's gate parses is starting to look healthy since 5.08.

- MNK and BLM are in a good place, as discussed. SAM is better since 5.08 but still needs some time for the logs to balance out... and may need more potency increases to put it on-par with BLM and MNK. We can expect this in 5.1

- The remaining support classes are all roughly, give or take, 1k median DPS behind the personal DPS classes. I feel RDM could use some love since Resurrection is quite a pitiful utility for actual clearing. RDM already suffers pdps for resurrection in the first place, so it should not sacrifice any pDPS for having this utility.

- DRG is currently doing the personal DPS of BLM whilst also bringing litany and dragon sight. DRG is exceptionally powerful at the moment and arguably the only really "overpowered" DPS at the moment. If you remove DRG from the equation, you can see that the situation is actually very well balanced right now.

... what? There is not a single fight Dragoon surpasses Black Mage in. Only in E1S and E3S are they even remotely close to one another, and this is due to Black Mage having to move. Regardless, you seem to be forgetting Monk also has utility, and actually does pull ahead of Black Mage. I find it quite baffling you point to Dragoon being the outlier. Now I won't deny it's too powerful but Monk is more so. Frankly, all three should be brought down a little.

As for the "support" if we can even call them that at this point. In what universe are they balanced? Black Mage currently has a 1,500-1,700 on the remaining Range and Caster DPS. That discrepancy is high enough double Black Mage is superior than any other Range or Caster comp.

[Akiudo]

As for the "support" if we can even call them that at this point.

thats a point that doesn't get stressed nearly enough, there is no more "support" the only "support class" if that would be dancer, and as their damage contribution even after their "support" is abysmal that doesn't matter in the slightest, dps support of any kind is irrelevant to the discussion because it gets thrown in with personal dps, it doesn't matter if you do 1000 personal dps less than another class or 2000 personal dps but buff another for 1000, both leave you 1000 dps short.

So the only "support" that actually matters is utility stuff and even that line is blurry as heck, people go "mch can have less personal dps than blm because it offers tactician" while ignoring that casters have addle which works on 90% of all relevant skills at half the cooldown, bard has things like warden's paean which sounds great until you realize it works on basically nothing of relevance, even monk mantra gets used against monks a lot right now, yet no one says "monk mantra is sooo great, i want something like that on my samurai" but instead "monk mantra so great, nerf dps and make me top again". If anything the classes with the least "support" should get some of that, give casters, blackmage included the equivalent of bards Nature's Minne and give some "take 10 percent less damage for x seconds" skill to all melees and than see them never ever use it (or use it when there is a 80% raidwide going off after which the healer will have to do exactly as much aoe healing as without them pressing that skill) because it is in fact useless in 90% of all situations and they aren't nearly good enough to capitalize on the 10% of situations where it would be usefull. the actually useful support of the so called "support classes" is barely existant at this point

[Tanker4444]

Pretty much this, it kills my enjoyment of playing machinist when I see a black mage outdpsing me by almost 3k even though my gear is better

I can accept black mage being the highest dps class, but not by a whole 2-3k, that's just plain ridiculous and makes me think of maining a different class just because of the huge imbalance.

I wouldn´t worry about it. After all, during SB MCH needed a buff and it got it. Just gotta wait until patch 5.5 !

[Capn_Goggles]

I wouldn´t worry about it. After all, during SB MCH needed a buff and it got it. Just gotta wait until patch 5.5 !

You're getting tunnel-vision. There's a massive difference between Stormblood balancing and Shadowbringers balancing, the most important of which is that you don't have DPS utility enforcing its own meta. In stormblood, a buff to a ranged DPS meant a buff to dragoon, because if you have a dragoon you're always going to bring ranged, and you're ALWAYS going to have a dragoon because he makes every job stronger. And of course, because you have dragoon and ranged DPS get a free 5% damage buff, you're going to bring bard because it's ranged, also bard buffs everyone elses' crit rate and damage, which is just inflating the power level again. Buffing machinist in Stormblood wasn't *just* buffing machinist, but an indirect buff to Dragoon and Bard who were already oppressively strong.

Compare this to Shadowbringers where you no longer have piercing/slashing debuff, and BRD no longer universally buffs everyone just by virtue of existing, and now you can finally start tweaking jobs at an individual level without worrying about the insane cascading effect of buffing one minute part of a job. Furthermore, it wasn't a "buff" MCH needed in stormblood, it always had a guaranteed spot in the speedkill meta, it needed an entire rework because the stormblood kit was complete nonsense and was zero fun to play.

Pretty much this, it kills my enjoyment of playing machinist when I see a black mage outdpsing me by almost 3k even though my gear is better

I can accept black mage being the highest dps class, but not by a whole 2-3k, that's just plain ridiculous and makes me think of maining a different class just because of the huge imbalance.

Black Mage is in a fine spot. This is the first time a DPS with zero utility deals enough damage to justify its own existence rather than being flat out useless because it's completely overshadowed by raid-wide damage buffs. The real problem is that the bottom half of the jobs are underperforming to a pathetic degree. I'd also like to point that despite being closer to the bottom of the DPS charts, SMN only does 800 rDPS less than BLM at the 50th percentile, and only 1200 less at the 95th percentile, so if a black mage is overshadowing you by 2-3k they're just playing better and/or are better geared (or you're a dancer)... Theoretically anyway, because I would never think about looking at aggregated date from an unsanctioned game addon.

I'm not saying this to insult your skill level either, only that you shouldn't be discouraged from playing your job because of Black Mage being exactly where it's supposed to be at.

[Kabooa]

it needed an entire rework because the stormblood kit was complete nonsense and was zero fun to play.

Machinist in Stormblood only had an irreconcilable difference with required latency to play effectively.

The kit itself was solid, and fun's subjective, but I personally found it a ton of fun after the learning curve.

[Dogempire]

You're getting tunnel-vision. There's a massive difference between Stormblood balancing and Shadowbringers balancing, the most important of which is that you don't have DPS utility enforcing its own meta. In stormblood, a buff to a ranged DPS meant a buff to dragoon, because if you have a dragoon you're always going to bring ranged, and you're ALWAYS going to have a dragoon because he makes every job stronger. And of course, because you have dragoon and ranged DPS get a free 5% damage buff, you're going to bring bard because it's ranged, also bard buffs everyone elses' crit rate and damage, which is just inflating the power level again. Buffing machinist in Stormblood wasn't *just* buffing machinist, but an indirect buff to Dragoon and Bard who were already oppressively strong.

Compare this to Shadowbringers where you no longer have piercing/slashing debuff, and BRD no longer universally buffs everyone just by virtue of existing, and now you can finally start tweaking jobs at an individual level without worrying about the insane cascading effect of buffing one minute part of a job. Furthermore, it wasn't a "buff" MCH needed in stormblood, it always had a guaranteed spot in the speedkill meta, it needed an entire rework because the stormblood kit was complete nonsense and was zero fun to play.



Black Mage is in a fine spot. This is the first time a DPS with zero utility deals enough damage to justify its own existence rather than being flat out useless because it's completely overshadowed by raid-wide damage buffs. The real problem is that the bottom half of the jobs are underperforming to a pathetic degree. I'd also like to point that despite being closer to the bottom of the DPS charts, SMN only does 800 rDPS less than BLM at the 50th percentile, and only 1200 less at the 95th percentile, so if a black mage is overshadowing you by 2-3k they're just playing better and/or are better geared (or you're a dancer)... Theoretically anyway, because I would never think about looking at aggregated date from an unsanctioned game addon.

I'm not saying this to insult your skill level either, only that you shouldn't be discouraged from playing your job because of Black Mage being exactly where it's supposed to be at.

I mean I agree with you that black mage is at where it's supposed to be, it's just that selfish dps vs selfish dps machinist isn't even in the running in a competition. Machinist should be a good 1000 dps higher than it currently is at at the very least.

As for the better geared, it was Titania so basically a giant punching bag with phases of small amounts of movement, but still ridiculous regardless. I had a 470 wep and was 462 in item level while they had full pentamelded 450 gear and a 475 wep, so not really better geared.

[Capn_Goggles]

Oh Titania EX, yeah I can see why they pulled those kinds of numbers then. It bears repeating though that I wholeheartedly agree that other jobs are simply not pulling their weight right now. The ranged DPS lost their raid utility, but apparently somebody forgot to give them more personal damage to compensate, I can't even laugh at dancer because it's so sad. RDM is inexplicably bad for another expansion, and SMN just needs a serious rework because it's pure unmitigated jank.

[Renryuu]

After reading everyone's posts in this topic, I guess I really am gonna have to just learn to play Blm and stop playing Mch despite being so much more skilled at it and loving it to pieces. v_v

Guess I could go Ninja when 5.1 comes out and they hopefully make it easier to play, but that still isn't a job I'd be thrilled to play, also I'd be giving up being ranged entirely and having to learn to melee which I tend to do the worst at in any mmo. x_x

[CKNovel]

After reading everyone's posts in this topic, I guess I really am gonna have to just learn to play Blm and stop playing Mch despite being so much more skilled at it and loving it to pieces. v_v

Do you play for performance or for the pleasure of the job?
If it's for performance, go ahead.
If it's for the pleasure of the job, please keep playing MCH.

As for now, you can clear and reach the DPS requirement for all fight with MCH. If you intend to tackle Ultimate you might want to learn BLM just in case SE overtune the fight and ignore ranged and SMN/RDM.

But never give up on the job you love, I've been MCH since the 3.0, despite the low performance at the first half of HW, despite the horrible state in the whole SB, despite our low DPS and lack of flexibility in ShB. If you truly love a job, you will make it work.