5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[TaiyouSeishin]

I'm aware, I'm just saying that at those levels of difference the gap between having a balanced party and having duplicate classes is a lot smaller. There will obviously still be dps differences between classes, however, I'd say that a less than 5% difference is actually pretty healthy since you don't want every class doing exactly the same dps but you still want them to be comparable. The game should reward a healthy diverse party, and the role bonuses and extra lb generation do just that.

Also, raid dps IS actual dps, the dps contributions of a class to other party members is just as valid as the damage you deal yourself, both bring the boss' hp down, only difference is that certain classes don't have rdps contribution tools, and in return said classes do more personal dps.

I meant actual dps in concerns of who is doing the damage. Pure dps jibs are meant to synergize with dps enhancing utility, rdps shows that value for the person who provides the buff. If a weaker pdpser is there, the value of that utility lessens.

SAM should be highest in pdps. But if you are asking for a class that only has dps-enhancing utility to be less in rdps still, you are saying that they should get a pdps tax that is higher than their utility value. Therefor the utility does not perform its function. Even if it comes "close" or even breaks even, you are adding extra variables that can detrimental, and if you make it break even, just lose the utility and make them a pure damage job, its essentially the same at that point

[Katie_Kitty]

Hell, despite the numbers, even Monk has mechanical issues with how it works. If Anatman in the opener was real intention of the developers from the beginning, then it was an extremely bad call. It's not fun to use, and it relies on server ticks we can't really see without a mod. Tornado Kick is back to being situational. Six Sided Star doesn't belong anywhere in any rotation, serving as yet another button to fix our Greased Lightning problems (that we also have Riddle of Earth AND the current Form Shift for).

I am not even slightly opposed to seeing the pure DPS jobs firmly at the top of the heap. But I don't want to face nerfs on top of mechanical issues going unfixed, and the majority of players who are calling for nerfs here aren't even pretending to make that consideration when they throw around "utility" as an excuse.

You act like monk is the only class with "mechanical issues." No job is perfect except perhaps yoshi's pet job black mage. Even RDM has serious issues, most notably the fact that it is far too reliant on RNG procs to do damage and can often find its DPS tanking when the verfire/verstone procs aren't coming in. The fact that we lost impact doesn't help at all, in fact that loss represents a bit of a downgrade in terms of the flow and consistency of our rotation because we no longer have that safety cushion protecting us from the possibility of having to cast jolt 3 or even 4 times in a row while acceleration is on cooldown. That's a big deal and you can actually watch your DPS tanking to the bottom of the ocean when stuff like that happens, and it's purely because of luck. That's not even taking into consideration how the loss of those procs impacts our damage over the remainder of the fight. You may even find yourself in a situation where your melee combo isn't prepared when you need it to be purely because of the lack of RNG procs, such as during stormy in E3S or just before baiting orbs early on in E1S. RDM has to deal with problems AND they don't have the DPS output to justify it so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Monk has to deal with stuff but at least they put up some of the biggest numbers in the game and they have utility too.

[Shiroe]

gl trying to get a cast thru as blm during uplifts in titan ..., blm is till not "easy" in such raids lol

[HyperiusUltima]

gl trying to get a cast thru as blm during uplifts in titan ..., blm is till not "easy" in such raids lol

BLM has a high skill ceiling since it's based on how you move and make use of Aetherial Manipulation and Between the Lines, among other things. Other than that, just Fire IV/Despair away.

[Aomine1992]

gl trying to get a cast thru as blm during uplifts in titan ..., blm is till not "easy" in such raids lol

Difficulty is subjective, it’s sad we have to keep saying that, cause honestly the only kind of difficult part of that fight for casters is p3 and that’s barely if they can make use of slide casting. Knowing where to move and stand doesn’t make the job harder cause everyone should be familiar with such things (in a non prog situation)

I tried BLM in E4s after clearing with my SMN and found no issue, actually I found it easier cause I could just slide to someone instead having to run back and forth...so difficulty is very subjective

[Miminming]

Done BLM, RDM and SMN in e4s

BLM definately not any harder than the other two, if anything its easier as long as you plan out your mobility CD...

RDM is surprisingly annoying to play there a little bit harder than the other 2

SMN can be the easiest or hardest depending you care about dps or no, i mean, you can just spam ruin ii if you dont care... but if you want to optimize it, it suddenly become the hardest to play.

Please stop saying BLM is hard if you only play BLM... its not even as technical as people think...if you play the other and still thinks BLM is hard then its just not your type...

[HyoMinPark]

Hard disagree. If complexity is so subjective that it's barely a factor worth considering whatsoever for balancing, then what is the point of mudras or the various OGCDs for SMN? Why even have positionals in general? Because at this point we've reduced "complexity" to busywork for the sake of having it, and two jobs are dealing with more inputs (as part of their identity) for less output than the higher end jobs.

I advocate for complexity to not be used because it’s subjective. For example, I was just told that there have been DNCs talking about how hard the job is to play. This was a bit shocking to me, because I find it very easy to play. Should the job be balanced against what those who say it’s hard say? Or should it be balanced because I say it’s easy?

Any job becomes easier the more you play it—which is why we shouldn’t say “X job is harder/more complex to play, so it should deal more damage”. Jobs that are more complex should feel more rewarding—but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they should be top damage dealers, and the “easy jobs” stay at the bottom.

While it sucks to say it, RDM should not be used as an excuse to not address the concerns SMN players have been raising, or any other DPS for that matter. It should still get looked at, it should absolutely get some serious changes to make it more competitive. Should it be looked at sooner? Maybe. Unfortunately, jobs have been left hanging for information and fixes before, but that doesn't mean fixes and changes aren't coming.

Where did I say that RDM should be used as an excuse to not address SMN? I simply said that, if we balanced jobs because they have a “more complex” rotation, then jobs like RDM would never deal high damage (this would also include jobs like DNC and BRD—both of whom have easy rotations; and, in the case of the latter, a lot of complexity was removed going into ShB from SB).

I merely contested your original “wait and see” suggestion because it has failed to work in the past. MCHs waited 16 months for adjustments in Stormblood. DRK waited an entire expansion for significant changes. RDM waited until Patch 4.4 to not be outDPS’d by BRD, which had far more utility and higher personal damage than the former. And WHM had to deal with the OG Lilies for the entirety of 4.0. Given how long some jobs had to wait and see changes, I am hesitant to just “wait and see”—simply because we may be waiting for quite a while, and end up watching certain jobs being favored over others. Just like what happened in SB.

Most players, myself definitely included, will never see the absolute peak of their job's performance. The people who do are a fraction of the overall player population. While the numbers and hard work are helpful at revealing what issues do currently exist. when those players start saying crap like "even if they buff my Jobs, I won't be happy if another Job is strong," then all they are generating beyond the data is raw sewage.

You haven’t answered my question about who we should balance around, since you seem opposed to balancing around the 95+ percentiles.

They can address the current DPS imbalance without nerfs to "those who need it" because there is no one who actually "needs" nerfs. There are, however, plenty of jobs in the game right now that need buffs and mechanical changes. Something isn't synergizing. Something isn't working. Address those things.

Where was I talking about nerfs? I don’t recall ever bringing up nerfs with regards to any of the jobs in my conversation with you.

Hell, despite the numbers, even Monk has mechanical issues with how it works. If Anatman in the opener was real intention of the developers from the beginning, then it was an extremely bad call. It's not fun to use, and it relies on server ticks we can't really see without a mod. Tornado Kick is back to being situational. Six Sided Star doesn't belong anywhere in any rotation, serving as yet another button to fix our Greased Lightning problems (that we also have Riddle of Earth AND the current Form Shift for).

I am not even slightly opposed to seeing the pure DPS jobs firmly at the top of the heap. But I don't want to face nerfs on top of mechanical issues going unfixed, and the majority of players who are calling for nerfs here aren't even pretending to make that consideration when they throw around "utility" as an excuse.

Several jobs have issues right now: mechanical and/or potency-wise. While Anatman, Tornado Kick, and 6SS have their issues, this is not something exclusive to MNK. We’ve already mentioned SMN’s current design with the Egi Assaults, but: NIN also has rotational issues, SAM’s Shoha is a joke of a skill, BRD has some room for rotational improvements (mostly changes to Apex Arrow and give Bloodletter/Rain of Death charges), MCH needs its latency issues addressed. I’m sure there are more.

[Kieren-Dohla]

I think Raise tax on RDM and SMN should be completely removed along with their Raise abilities. Instead, SE should implement Raise in an item form like Phoenix Down. Give it a good recast like 10 mins and a cast time of 8s like regular Raise. That would allow the jobs to be balanced solely around their dps and raid buffs while also allowing DPS classes to raise in a pinch when healers can't afford the time or mp to do it.

Nobody wants their dps to be hamstrung by utility they won't even use during clean runs.

Don't take away my SMN Raise ability. Do you even main SMN? I've had enough abilities taken away and pets so fundamentally restructured it such. No more tanking with Titan egi in the overworld when solo etc. Enough has been done to my main as it is with abilities I have since 2013 being taken away. Raise is core to me for SMN and I'm sure it is with a lot of SMNs. And suddenly replacing it with an item? That item would have zero mp cost. Why would healers then even use their raise spell? So then you'd suggest because of a change with Phoenix down you'd take away raise from healers. A healer with out raise!?

[Machi_Machiavelli]

Negative. They do not need to be nerfed, the other jobs need to brought up to par. As it stands some jobs are being excluded from savage, so why would you want to nerf anything? That would just make more dps jobs struggle to beat enrage timers.

[Miminming]

Power creeppppp