5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[Xan_Kriegor]

Tax Tax Tax...
What PPL forget: Tax applies to raw DPS. So raw DPS of a range should be lower because he can compensate by movement in an actual encounter.
But the numbers we discuss are not raw DPS. The numbers are logs of the current RAID content and if any DPS is so far behind like now then the tax is too high.

I do agree with this, and I think people tend to forget this. The data we are discussing is related to the final damage output of the Jobs. It is already taking into account all of these other variables. I do agree that the damage POTENTIAL of Melee Jobs + BLM should be higher than Ranged Physical. However, this huge gap between roles output means that the taxes are too high.

[Vulcwen]

Ranged DPS need a slight tax in a dummy setting for 2 reasons:
- They can keep uptime nearly 100% of the time (gaze mechanics still make ranged disengage as well).
- They facilitate uptime for other jobs by being able to take mechanics that would cost other jobs (including healers/tanks) dps to perform.
While the first point is the common argument, it should be pretty small and only be visible in situations where all jobs can get (nearly) full uptime. In fights with melee downtime, or extensive movement (uptime loss for casters), this penalty should not show in practice.
The second point is far more important, as it is actual rDPS contribution, even though it does not show in FFLogs.

Is this gap justified? Maybe, if the intend is 2 melee 1 ranged 1 caster as composition, it could be. If it is really 1 of each role with one of any dps role, probably not. Double melee is pretty much forced by the gap that exists now. So far people are not taking triple melee for speed, however, so the party buff and the uptime facilitated by ranged dps seems to not be bad enough to convince groups going for speed to switch their comps.

A key point to drive home is that job balance isn't just 1-1 comparing what jobs can do, it's how they fit in the composition, and how compositions benefit or get harmed by switching out a job for something else.

[Akiudo]

I do agree with this, and I think people tend to forget this. The data we are discussing is related to the final damage output of the Jobs. It is already taking into account all of these other variables. I do agree that the damage POTENTIAL of Melee Jobs + BLM should be higher than Ranged Physical. However, this huge gap between roles output means that the taxes are too high.

a 30 percentile monk literally outdps's a 90 percentile dancer, obviously thats balanced cause its sooo hard to stay in melee range

[ForteNightshade]

The devs don't want 100% perfection, they want classes to be viable. After that they will slowly, and I do mean slowly, tweak every class to get it to where they want it to be. And if it's like BLM from SB, once the classes are about where they want them to be, provided there's not a major rework of the class, then the class won't need much major tweaking going forward, just tweaking of anything new added to the class.

People are very much aware of this terrible practice, which is why they've straight up let jobs die. Monk and Ninja were the least played jobs by a mile prior to their respective buffs. Red Mage is already getting tossed in the grave. Frankly, I find it a little embarrassing players feel the need to stop playing their preferred jobs because the dev team ignores feedback.

[Kitfox]

I think Raise tax on RDM and SMN should be completely removed along with their Raise abilities. Instead, SE should implement Raise in an item form like Phoenix Down. Give it a good recast like 10 mins and a cast time of 8s like regular Raise. That would allow the jobs to be balanced solely around their dps and raid buffs while also allowing DPS classes to raise in a pinch when healers can't afford the time or mp to do it.

Nobody wants their dps to be hamstrung by utility they won't even use during clean runs.

[Cetonis]

I think Raise tax on RDM and SMN should be completely removed along with their Raise abilities. Instead, SE should implement Raise in an item form like Phoenix Down. Give it a good recast like 10 mins and a cast time of 8s like regular Raise. That would allow the jobs to be balanced solely around their dps and raid buffs while also allowing DPS classes to raise in a pinch when healers can't afford the time or mp to do it.

Nobody wants their dps to be hamstrung by utility they won't even use during clean runs.

Having Phoenix Downs be an actual relevant item in the game would be a very Final Fantasy thing too. I guess you could have people fighting over who's going to use theirs, but it needn't be consumable even, really.

[Rasikko]

I don't want SE touching DNC now.

[ForteNightshade]

Range deserve a DPS tax because:

1) Unlike melee, they can have sustained 100% uptime while still handling mechanics (melee have to move out of range (e.g. Temporary Current, or other point-blank AoEs, costing them occasional partial losses of GCDs and Auto-attacks). Melee also have to content with positionals and losing partial amounts of potency when mechanics force them to certain sides of the boss. True North helps, but for certain fights it simply isn't available enough to prevent missing positionals. Ranged on the other hand can hit from any angle.

2) Unlike casters, ranged do not have to cast spells and can DPS on the fly while running, dodging, etc. Casters sometimes have to interrupt a cast to move out of the way, and since casters don't have auto-attacks, it's lost DPS.

Therefore since Ranged do not have any real moments where they are disengaged, they should have overall the lowest damage potential of the 3 DPS subtypes.

If the Range were pulling within 300-400 or so of the weakest melee, you'd have an argument. Currently, Summoner, the strongest of the weaker five, is a thousand or more behind the lowest melee. The big three could literally AFK for 30 seconds and still pull ahead of the Range. That isn't taxation, it's extortion.

[AikenDrum]

What is the raise tax even? I mean, in actual numbers? Say, default raise potential is 2/min, bringing smn over blm increases it to 3/min with the tax of 1300 dps; rdm can double smn raises - shouldn't its tax then be 2600 dps? But it's only 200 more than smn. Why simply having more than 2 raises/min has such huge tax, and then actual raising potential over that number has almost no effect on dps? This doesn't make much sense.

[waterboytkd]

I think Raise tax on RDM and SMN should be completely removed along with their Raise abilities. Instead, SE should implement Raise in an item form like Phoenix Down. Give it a good recast like 10 mins and a cast time of 8s like regular Raise. That would allow the jobs to be balanced solely around their dps and raid buffs while also allowing DPS classes to raise in a pinch when healers can't afford the time or mp to do it.

Nobody wants their dps to be hamstrung by utility they won't even use during clean runs.

Having Phoenix Downs be an actual relevant item in the game would be a very Final Fantasy thing too. I guess you could have people fighting over who's going to use theirs, but it needn't be consumable even, really.

I think these two posts are really good. Giving everyone a reusable phoenix down isn't going to break raids (most likely) because hard casting raises is brutal, and the weakness debuff is backbreaking in savage content.

And suffering a dps tax for an ability that gives zero value if everything goes according to plan? That feels really bad.