5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[Xan_Kriegor]

DPS still unbalanced but it has nothing to do with the reasons of the OP.

We have had only a single day of Patch 5.0.8, so it is too early to measure the real impact of SAM and NIN buffs. However, SAM was not that much behind from DRG before this Patch regarding rDPS. The buffs should be enough to put SAM on pair with DRG. We will need to wait more days to see if NIN was able to get to DRG and SAM dmg level too.

Using the data we have TODAY we can say that DRG SAM and NIN seem balanced between each other. If we select data from only 1 Day on fflogs, we can see that for every Savage fight the rDPS difference from these Jobs varies from 200-400. It is even more balanced than the tanks damage, which is considered to be really balanced right now. MNK and BLM still ahead for a slightly higher margin. Again, I need to say that this is not a really good data since we had only 1 day after the 5.0.8 Patch, but at least is something to use in our discussion instead of personal experiences carried with bias.

Back to the topic, the DPS unbalance is not caused by the SAM and NIN situation. It seems that right now the Melee Role + Black Mage have a huge lead of rDPS ahead from all the other Jobs (Casters or Ranged Physicals). We can divide this problem in two parts:

1- Caster Role is completely unbalanced.

It depends on fight and percentile, but at high % (80+) BLM has an advantage of 1k-1,5k of rDPS in comparison to the other Casters (SMN and RDM). This is too much. You can argue about Ress Taxes and other things, but these taxes should not be that expensive. The Caster Role is the most unbalanced right now because of these huge gap between its members.

2- Melee Role is overtunned and Physical Ranged is undertunned.

It is known that MNK DRG and BLM were overtunned in comparison to all the other DPS jobs before 5.0.8. SAM was pretty close to DRG as a 4th rDPSer. All the other jobs behind them seemed really close to each other without really significant rDPS differences. However, after 5.0.8 SAM NIN and DRG should be really close to each other in the 3rd, 4th and 5th spot. However, since the SMN changes are just QoL and there was no change at all for RDM, DNC, BRD, MCH these jobs were left behind. This means that even the WORST melee DPS should be able to provide a significant advantage in comparison to a Physical Ranged Job (and other Caster Job that is not BLM).

A default DPS party configuration which respects the 5% bonus rule is: Melee + Caster+ Physical Ranged + "Anyone". In the current situation, it will be really desirable to set this "Anyone" position as a Melee Job because all melee jobs are in an okay position whereas all Physical Ranged and Casters (besides BLM) are really bad right now. Also, if we assume that getting rid of the Physical Ranged Job means 1% less damage, parties with Triple Melee or Two BLM are starting to be viable due to the really unbalanced state of the DPS Jobs right now.

[Maero]

I'm shocked MCH & RDM didn't get any DPS buffs.

I am not, SE have shown since Stormblood to no care overly much for both jobs.
As for machinist however, i do not see it needing buffs, it seems really good this expansion

[Akiudo]

You wanted a reason to why, do refrain from calling me biased tho.

Uptime difference is the reason. Having a ranged is safer in terms of uptime and survivability looking at their free movement without punishing their dps. NINs still need a lot more variables to be considered taken instead of a physical ranged.

NIN:
1. melee range/positionals
2. timed casts and imobility from Ten-Chi-Jin
3. hugely affected by the performance of the other 7 players in the party when using TA.
4. Does less rDPS than the other Melees.

Physical Ranged:
1. Personal Performance.
(Only for DNC) 2. performance of the other 7 players in the party.

at 90% percentile (grabbed a random nin on leviathan (so every positional auto hit) with a 89 group performance, so nin perfectly in line with the group as far as contribution goes) missing every single armor crush and aeolian edge, literally every single one would result in a loss of 300 dps, and i dare say if someone would manage to do that their performance would suck on every single job either way. also (this time i grabbed some random 15% (without death , after patch, so someone that literally sucked ass))nin from e1, you know the turn where the boss jumps away from time to time and even that person managed to keep his auto attack (meaning he was in melee range) up basically constantly.

Positionals/melee range if you are even a semi decent player and not some carried 10% while wearing bis guy that screams how everyone else is op will in fact cost you nearly nothing in a normal setting even if you do fuck up a positional or two, its also too early (as lots of people will not have equipped nin because especially the total uber top players tend to play whats best for the group) to tell if it really does less rdps than the other melees, sims at least say no it doesn't (no, having 30 dps less than a dragoon at the end of the day is not "dealing less rdps, we cant all be the best class down to a single point of dps.) and the "hugely affected by the group" aspect, well yes that is true, but if you are a 20% nin in a 90% static you got bigger problems, and if its the other way around you don't seem to care that much about absolute top performance or you wouldn't stay with that group.

[Hasrat]

Basically this was only intended to marginally improve things without breaking anything before actual fixes come. If they just go wild with buffs in the middle of their actual balancing efforts, they risk making more work for themselves later. This is just "We're pretty sure we can buff this much without actually changing anything."

[Tharnor]

Guess it shows how much the original poster did not read the developers message when they announced the changes in 5.08. They are purely a band-aid with a wait and see approach for sam and smn. While nin is getting a rework in 5.1.

[Jonnycbad]

Range deserve a DPS tax because:

1) Unlike melee, they can have sustained 100% uptime while still handling mechanics (melee have to move out of range (e.g. Temporary Current, or other point-blank AoEs, costing them occasional partial losses of GCDs and Auto-attacks). Melee also have to content with positionals and losing partial amounts of potency when mechanics force them to certain sides of the boss. True North helps, but for certain fights it simply isn't available enough to prevent missing positionals. Ranged on the other hand can hit from any angle.

2) Unlike casters, ranged do not have to cast spells and can DPS on the fly while running, dodging, etc. Casters sometimes have to interrupt a cast to move out of the way, and since casters don't have auto-attacks, it's lost DPS.

Therefore since Ranged do not have any real moments where they are disengaged, they should have overall the lowest damage potential of the 3 DPS subtypes.

[TelosNox]

Tax Tax Tax...
What PPL forget: Tax applies to raw DPS. So raw DPS of a range should be lower because he can compensate by movement in an actual encounter.
But the numbers we discuss are not raw DPS. The numbers are logs of the current RAID content and if any DPS is so far behind like now then the tax is too high.

[Karshan]

Range deserve a DPS tax because:

1) Unlike melee, they can have sustained 100% uptime while still handling mechanics (melee have to move out of range (e.g. Temporary Current, or other point-blank AoEs, costing them occasional partial losses of GCDs and Auto-attacks). Melee also have to content with positionals and losing partial amounts of potency when mechanics force them to certain sides of the boss. True North helps, but for certain fights it simply isn't available enough to prevent missing positionals. Ranged on the other hand can hit from any angle.

2) Unlike casters, ranged do not have to cast spells and can DPS on the fly while running, dodging, etc. Casters sometimes have to interrupt a cast to move out of the way, and since casters don't have auto-attacks, it's lost DPS.

Therefore since Ranged do not have any real moments where they are disengaged, they should have overall the lowest damage potential of the 3 DPS subtypes.

I'm a caster. And while as a RDM I do envy range for their mobility for instance on E3S (see the logs it hits RDM hard that fight), what Telos said is right : if even with that mobility taken into account, a BLM or a melee is still 1k5 above you in rDPS (so also accounting for raid buffs), why take you ?

At similar skill level, if a BLM can die twice in a fight (not consecutive though) and STILL output a better number than a RDM or a DNC not dying, something is fundamentally wrong balance wise. Cause rDPS takes everything into account. I t means either BLM is too strong (but nerfs are rarely welcomed so not gonna happen), or the mobility tax / the raise tax is way too strong on others.

I play my BLM worse than my RDM but starting E3S I'm considering using it to help with enrage cause I feel like a burden for my team as RDM DPS wise. Already started a bit on E2S.
If we need that 1k rDPS more I'll probably need to.

[SaberMaxwell]

Range deserve a DPS tax because:

1) Unlike melee, they can have sustained 100% uptime while still handling mechanics (melee have to move out of range (e.g. Temporary Current, or other point-blank AoEs, costing them occasional partial losses of GCDs and Auto-attacks). Melee also have to content with positionals and losing partial amounts of potency when mechanics force them to certain sides of the boss. True North helps, but for certain fights it simply isn't available enough to prevent missing positionals. Ranged on the other hand can hit from any angle.

This tax should more or less equal the jobs out; if the melee has 100% uptime it would do more than the ranged, but in a fight where they're forced to lose uptime the numbers should come closer. Certainly closer than the gulf we have now. Not to mention most strats emphasize melee uptime anyway; you mentioned temporary current but that's nearly one of the only mechanics this whole tier that melees lose uptime on, and if you're smart about it you hardly even lose 1 gcd from it, 2 in the fight in its entirety.

2) Unlike casters, ranged do not have to cast spells and can DPS on the fly while running, dodging, etc. Casters sometimes have to interrupt a cast to move out of the way, and since casters don't have auto-attacks, it's lost DPS.

Only caster not suffering the "tax" is the most mobile one atm, humorously.

Therefore since Ranged do not have any real moments where they are disengaged, they should have overall the lowest damage potential of the 3 DPS subtypes.

When compared with 100% uptime, and not with a gulf as large as it is now.

[Taranok]

Tax Tax Tax...
What PPL forget: Tax applies to raw DPS. So raw DPS of a range should be lower because he can compensate by movement in an actual encounter.
But the numbers we discuss are not raw DPS. The numbers are logs of the current RAID content and if any DPS is so far behind like now then the tax is too high.

And what people also forget is that the devs don't like doing major shifts in balance. They don't want a class to go from trash tier to top tier in a single patch. BLM was literally being buffed all throughout SB to get it to where it needed to be. First a cooldown reduction to Triplecast and a cast time reduction to fire 4 (and bliz 4 I think) of 3 to 2.8s. Then they buffed F4 from 260 to 280. Then 280 to 300. It took them all the way to patch 4.4 to finally get BLM to that state.

The fastest changes to classes I've seen are AST in 5.05, and SMN in 4.1. AST because the class was so awful that no one was touching it and it needed emergency fixes, SMN because that class was also so awful and needed emergency fixes back in SB. And this was at a time when MCH also needed emergency fixes but the devs instead focused on flat out redesigning the class from the ground up instead while giving it bandaids to limp it along. The devs don't want a repeat of what happened in 5.1 when Summoner was catapulted from one of the worst DPS classes to one of the best, admittedly a problem caused by a poorly designed ability (Wyrmwave copying oGCDs and GCDs, which was never documented, displayed in tooltips, yet worked anyways). You can see this because Wyrmwave was buffed initially, then nerfed to below the pre-buff levels.

The devs don't want 100% perfection, they want classes to be viable. After that they will slowly, and I do mean slowly, tweak every class to get it to where they want it to be. And if it's like BLM from SB, once the classes are about where they want them to be, provided there's not a major rework of the class, then the class won't need much major tweaking going forward, just tweaking of anything new added to the class.