Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[Numenor1379]

MNK is busted and needs to be dropped down some as it should not be topping SAM and BLM. BLM may need to be nerfed depending on what top DPS numbers SE wants. SAM needs to be within 1% of BLM. MCH should probably be roughly equal to DRG and a bit under MNK.

[dinnertime]

BLM, SAM and MCH should be top three. They're all selfish DPS. MCH gets 3rd since it has Tactician at least.
MNK (shared with SMN) should be 4th place since they have mediocre utilities compared to the rest of the jobs not mentioned. DRG should be right below them because its utilites are a bit more significant, but not too great either.

[ForteNightshade]

BLM, SAM and MCH should be top three. They're all selfish DPS. MCH gets 3rd since it has Tactician at least.
MNK (shared with SMN) should be 4th place since they have mediocre utilities compared to the rest of the jobs not mentioned. DRG should be right below them because its utilites are a bit more significant, but not too great either.

Machinist can never be that high because you do have account for mobility to some extent. While yes, this tier did not emphasise it. We could easily have another Alphascape which was not kind to melee. Keep in mind, you have to consider pugs and midcore statics that won't do janky uptime strats. It's hard to say where I would slot it based on the current balance since I really think nerfs to the big three need to be considered; possibly Ninja depending how far back the aforementioned three are scaled. In a vacuum, I'd say it should look something like this... (in no particular DPS order, just to be clear)

Samurai/Black Mage
Monk/Dragoon/Machinist/Summoner
Ninja/Bard/Red Mage
Dancer

And they should all be within a reasonable striking distance of each other. Dancer, for example, shouldn't be too far below Machinist. In this way, you "tax" the mobility/utility but not to the absurd degree currently. It also still makes a triple range an option, be it two Casters or Range. Personally, I would actually prefer they cave in and return utility to the Range in lieu of just slapping damage on everyone. It just gives more flexibility and uniqueness to the respective roles.

[xxvaynxx]

Machinist can never be that high because you do have account for mobility to some extent. While yes, this tier did not emphasise it. We could easily have another Alphascape which was not kind to melee. Keep in mind, you have to consider pugs and midcore statics that won't do janky uptime strats. It's hard to say where I would slot it based on the current balance since I really think nerfs to the big three need to be considered; possibly Ninja depending how far back the aforementioned three are scaled. In a vacuum, I'd say it should look something like this... (in no particular DPS order, just to be clear)

Samurai/Black Mage
Monk/Dragoon/Machinist/Summoner
Ninja/Bard/Red Mage
Dancer

And they should all be within a reasonable striking distance of each other. Dancer, for example, shouldn't be too far below Machinist. In this way, you "tax" the mobility/utility but not to the absurd degree currently. It also still makes a triple range an option, be it two Casters or Range.

I agree with this, while it sucks to have your job nerfed. The melee role is just too F**ked atm.

They COULD just buff sam again but the problem is mnk is still too powerful. They would have to buff samurai AND blm since mnk is able to beat/or rival blm dps.

Mnk is beating blm in fights like levi because the uptime but that shouldn't be the case even IF no positionals.

Mnks shouldn't be outdpsing blm and samurai at all.
Sam and Blm offer nothing to the raid but their dps, the fact that some people still think mnk doing this much dps is ok is asinine.

[waterboytkd]

Only thing I would do with monk is rework Tornado Kick, 6 Sided Star, and Anatman. The last of which should be reworked such that it's not part of the opener anymore. Take away the Anatman opener, and they lose a bit of dps. Which probably puts them where they should be in relation to the other melee dps.

Buffing the under-performers is, in my mind, the way to go. And if the concern is power creep, keep this in mind: the serious, meta-gaming groups are all running MNK, DRG, and BLM. The "OP" classes. And early reports for NIN indicate it might be at DRG levels now. Buffing the other classes won't make groups stronger, as the "strong" groups are already running stacked on the best classes. It'll instead diversify what is considered a "strong" group of classes.

[dinnertime]

Machinist can never be that high because you do have account for mobility to some extent. While yes, this tier did not emphasise it. We could easily have another Alphascape which was not kind to melee.

Makes sense. I do agree with this list, not too different though.

[Akiudo]

BLM, SAM and MCH should be top three. They're all selfish DPS. MCH gets 3rd since it has Tactician at least.
MNK (shared with SMN) should be 4th place since they have mediocre utilities compared to the rest of the jobs not mentioned. DRG should be right below them because its utilites are a bit more significant, but not too great either.

funnily enough blm has addle which in 90% of situations ends up being "tactitian on half the cooldown" people just tendt to ignore that cause casters where never really expected to buff/debuff such stuff and it doesn't explicitly say "lets your group take less damage" like tactician does, however thats exactly what it does as long as the attack is magical (so 90% of all raidwides and tankbusters for the last 8 or so raid tiers)

Machinist can never be that high because you do have account for mobility to some extent. While yes, this tier did not emphasise it. We could easily have another Alphascape which was not kind to melee. Keep in mind, you have to consider pugs and midcore statics that won't do janky uptime strats. It's hard to say where I would slot it based on the current balance since I really think nerfs to the big three need to be considered; possibly Ninja depending how far back the aforementioned three are scaled. In a vacuum, I'd say it should look something like this... (in no particular DPS order, just to be clear)

Samurai/Black Mage
Monk/Dragoon/Machinist/Summoner
Ninja/Bard/Red Mage
Dancer

And they should all be within a reasonable striking distance of each other. Dancer, for example, shouldn't be too far below Machinist. In this way, you "tax" the mobility/utility but not to the absurd degree currently. It also still makes a triple range an option, be it two Casters or Range. Personally, I would actually prefer they cave in and return utility to the Range in lieu of just slapping damage on everyone. It just gives more flexibility and uniqueness to the respective roles.

while i do think the general sentiment of taxing for mobility is not wrong and i'm not screaming "brd/mch/dnc need to be top dps" i dislike the reasoning you offer, not because you are wrong but because things like "we could easily end up with another alphascape" for example we may just aswell not do so, than what ? the classes are underpowered now, not in a potential next raid tier that in this shape may never come.

also "we have to think about not so great players" gets way to overstated , lets assume you are as good as the group is (because if you try to balance around how well a world first 98% average mch while fair in a "we know each other for 5 days and non of us has any experience in any kind of mmo" static you may aswell not try to balance at all), so if you are an uber mch doing 90% parses even after a death you run with a group where everyone is gold and if you just suck ass your group still wipes to enrage on e2s even though everyone has their weapons and 3 out of 4 classes are meta.

If physical ranged was so easy while everyone else had as much of a harder time as most people act than they should totally excel in lower brackets, that however is simply not true, you can look at every single percentile, even at the absolute low end, the worst of the worse, physical range are still just not up there, yes the difference gets smaller but at no range, literally not even at 10% ranges can even compete with melees, let alone beat them (ignore ninjas there, its a 2 week average so obviously the extra low ninjas are pre patch 99% of the time).

The one reason i do think a "movement" tax (at the end of the fight, not on a dummy, so let the melees lead on dummies by 200 dps so they can lead by a hundred in the fight)is right is not even due to uptime, if a melee is worth his salt he will have a high uptime, that may be worse if they are bad, but i would argue if you are overhelmed trying to stand close to the boss than things like managing proccs on bard compared to having a strict rotation of 1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5 will fuck you over every bit as hard. No, the reason why i do think a movement tax is just (and unjust at the same time) is for things like black smokers, because if you had to use a melee for them he would surely lose out on dps, and while casters generally can compensate with skills and all they will most likely lose at least a little bit off dps compared to physical ranged, so at that time the one doing these mechanics doesn't just do full dps, he helps the others keep theirs so that is indeed a point where if lets say mch/sam/blm where exactly equal at the end of the actual fight than having the mch would in fact be better than having the samurai cause the mch would not only deal full damage but also prevent another class from loosing theirs.

HOWEVER, (and thats why i think it is unjust in a way aswell) if we would go the "every 'balanced' group is equally viable" than thats that, theres no reason for the samurai to complain he has to move because they lack a brd/dnc/mch, its on them to keep the group balanced and having a loss for an unbalanced group is just the punishment for that, if however on the other hand you say "every group should be viable" than right now things like tripple melee (even though there are 50% more ranged than melees) is totally in the realm of "probably won't cost us much" wheres things like triple ranged are a sad joke.

Also why complain if you lose 500 dps for doing a mechanic as a monk because you excluded a ranged (any ranged, a decent caster can bait stuff and stay at the far edges pretty easily aswell), even if casters/ranged where doing exactly the same as 4 ranged party would lose out on melee lb, the by far most universally usefull dps lb, no one bets an eyelid at that because "if you exclude melees completly its your own fault" so why not "if you reserve 3 out of 4 spots for 4 out of 10 classes its your own fault you have to move" ?

[IruruCece]

They COULD just buff sam again but the problem is mnk is still too powerful.

Someone who says "they could improve my job but I still won't be happy if another job is still strong" doesn't have an opinion on game balance worth taking seriously.

[ForteNightshade]

while i do think the general sentiment of taxing for mobility is not wrong and i'm not screaming "brd/mch/dnc need to be top dps" i dislike the reasoning you offer, not because you are wrong but because things like "we could easily end up with another alphascape" for example we may just aswell not do so, than what ? the classes are underpowered now, not in a potential next raid tier that in this shape may never come.

Then it still doesn't matter. For argument sake, let's assume Dragoon is pulling 15,500. If Machinist were at 15,250, no one is really going to care because the two jobs are close enough together that trading one for the other doesn't impact much. I'm a bit confused why you're bringing up how underpowered the range on when I already acknowledged that. And they need a serious buff. But you still need to prepare for potential differences going forward. If they balanced the Range purely on this tier alone, a fight like O12S would be horrendous for melee. Hence why their needs always be that slow gap to account for those variables.

As for bad players. Overstated or not, it has to be considered with regards to balance. If you ignore how the majority of groups will not cater towards melee uptime, it can swing things in the opposite direction where melee get stigmatized. Once again, I question why you're referencing how lopsided the Range and Melee are. I never disagreed with that nor did I insinuate otherwise. I simply said you need to have a mobility tax, just not one as absurdly high as what we have now.

Someone who says "they could improve my job but I still won't be happy if another job is still strong" doesn't have an opinion on game balance worth taking seriously.

... what a person mains has no bearing on their opinion if said opinion is, in fact, accurate? She's right. Buffing Samurai would just create more problems because Monk shouldn't be pulling ahead of Black Mage. And I don't main any of them, by the way.

[Akiudo]

Then it still doesn't matter. For argument sake, let's assume Dragoon is pulling 15,500. If Machinist were at 15,250, no one is really going to care because the two jobs are close enough together that trading one for the other doesn't impact much. I'm a bit confused why you're bringing up how underpowered the range on when I already acknowledged that. And they need a serious buff. But you still need to prepare for potential differences going forward. If they balanced the Range purely on this tier alone, a fight like O12S would be horrendous for melee. Hence why their needs always be that slow gap to account for those variables.

As for bad players. Overstated or not, it has to be considered with regards to balance. If you ignore how the majority of groups will not cater towards melee uptime, it can swing things in the opposite direction where melee get stigmatized. Once again, I question why you're referencing how lopsided the Range and Melee are. I never disagreed with that nor did I insinuate otherwise. I simply said you need to have a mobility tax, just not one as absurdly high as what we have now.

to be honest my text ended up a lot longer than when i planned started to type it out, which ended up looking like i disagree with you on the fundamentals more than i do, My point mostly is (thats why i picked up your point about current raid design) that people tend to (not saying you did, i saw that you critized the loopsidedness of the dps balance right now) use mobility as this great thing that would be so incredibly useful if xyz happens even though that may never come, i swear to god even if no one would admit it there are more than a few players that would scream how phys ranged are overpowered or at least go "see, its balanced" if there was a single fight in all of eden where you have to move in and out of range non stop and on that fight alone the 3 physical ranged would top the charts by 1% while on every other fight they would be even farther behind than right now.

About the bad players thing so i think you missed my point, maybe i made it badly, apologys in that case, i don't think bad players should be disregarded, my point was mostly how even though the majority of groups don't cater to melee uptime and all (gotta be honest here, i was in some partys that couldn't beat e1 enrage and even they catered to melee uptime so "majority" may be a strong word here) even in this bad groups melees are overpowering the ranges to a ridiculous degree, again though i saw that you critized the dps gap, it was mostly that i started to answer on what you wrote and than went on trying to make my own point, somewhere in the middle of that it seems that got muddled and thats on me so sorry there