Have we given up on SCH?

[DenzelVilliers]

But let me ask you this: would you rather see one healer get an improvement in playstyle, even if it’s not yours, or hold them all back until they can all be improved? WHM is not my main by any stretch of the imagination, but I’d be overjoyed if they got a rework they were happy with. The reason I’m asking for a SCH rework is that it’s something that could be easily achieved in a patch (due to existing assets), whereas a WHM rework would probably be new expansion stuff. And they deserve better, too, but I’ll take what I can get.

I already did that answer, i would prefer first fix the skill issues, after the playstyle. And the playstyle is something that can be requested in general, not individual, like i said all healers are in the same boat about their Damage Skill amount and rotations.

And i don't think SCHs changes are easily or WHM changes are something for the next Expansion. Some examples based on the game right now:

WHM:

- Fluid Aura: 160 Damage Potency ( 1 Lilly Required ), that way you don't have to overheal to build their gauge, a similar issue that SCH had until 5.05, people asked for Energy Drain back and they got, Energy Drain was deleted, Fluid Aura still there.
- Holy and AoE Heals like Medica and Medica II: 2 secs cast time, all healers got 2 secs for the cast while WHM still have 2.5.
- Temperance: 5% Damage Boost, that way WHM get some Utility at same time do not become better than AST on it ( 6% for Divination more ~7 individual cards doing 6%/8% each for the same amount of time ).******
- Presence of Mind AoE Trait: for some Utility as well.*******

****** ( Temperance OR Presence of Mind, don't need to be both, only one ).

That's more than enough to WHM to me, if WHM kit don't have Utility ( like now ) they should be on the top for Healing ( SCH at this moment ) and Damage ( WHM for now ), just like WAR, BLM and SAM usually are, no Utility = more potencies, at SB for example they was the worst for both points, do you agree?.

AST right now:

- Old Cards effect back ( except for Ewer/Spire ).
- Cellestial Opposition: Stun OR 500MP~1000MP regen just like Assize.

Do you aggre?.

.
.
.

About bring some damage skills back, i do agree, i do want it too, but for all healers not only one especially AoE DoTs what was way handy in Big Pulls. Cleric Stance would be nice as well ( SB Version ).

[Hatstand]

I already did that answer, i would prefer first fix the skill issues, after the playstyle. And the playstyle is something that can be requested in general, not individual, like i said all healers are in the same boat about their Damage Skill amount and rotations.

And i don't think SCHs changes are easily or WHM changes are something for the next Expansion. Some examples based on the game right now:

WHM:

- Fluid Aura: 160 Damage Potency ( 1 Lilly Required ), that way you don't have to overheal to build their gauge, a similar issue that SCH had until 5.05, people asked for Energy Drain back and they got, Energy Drain was deleted, Fluid Aura still there.
- Holy and AoE Heals like Medica and Medica II: 2 secs cast time, all healers got 2 secs for the cast while WHM still have 2.5.
- Temperance: 5% Damage Boost, that way WHM get some Utility at same time do not become better than AST on it ( 6% for Divination more ~7 individual cards doing 6%/8% each for the same amount of time ).******
- Presence of Mind AoE Trait: for some Utility as well.*******

****** ( Temperance OR Presence of Mind, don't need to be both, only one ).

That's more than enough to WHM to me, if WHM kit don't have Utility ( like now ) they should be on the top for Healing ( SCH at this moment ) and Damage ( WHM for now ), just like WAR, BLM and SAM usually are, no Utility = more potencies, at SB for example they was the worst for both points, do you agree?.

AST right now:

- Old Cards effect back ( except for Ewer/Spire ).
- Cellestial Opposition: Stun OR 500MP~1000MP regen just like Assize.

Do you aggre?.

.
.
.

About bring some damage skills back, i do agree, i do want it too, but for all healers not only one especially AoE DoTs what was way handy in Big Pulls. Cleric Stance would be nice as well ( SB Version ).

For WHM, I agree with giving them a dps Lily option, but think it shouldn't nourish the blood lily, or should nourish it less. Right now it's a nice give and take between heals and dps. Having a dps lily that also nourished the blood lily a small much as a heal would risk turning the lilies into a pure dps mechanic.

For cast times, I don't think holy should have a shorter time unless the stun is nerfed. AoW and Gravity need shorter cast times because you have to weave heals in. Holy's stun mitigates damage, so it's more spammable.

I don't think it needs a damage boost on temperance. It's rdps is already highest of the healers, and a flat buff in a long cooldown doesn't add much to gameplay (much like chain stratagem doesn't).

I agree on AST changes, but WHMs need buffs to their play style, bit their capabilities. Just like SCHs.

(And yes, we all realise that our existing dps moves would need to be needed to get our old ones back. It's just that we've already said it so many times it's tiring to repeat all the little details over and over.

[EaMett]

For WHM, I agree with giving them a dps Lily option, but think it shouldn't nourish the blood lily, or should nourish it less. Right now it's a nice give and take between heals and dps. Having a dps lily that also nourished the blood lily a small much as a heal would risk turning the lilies into a pure dps mechanic.

The thing is, if it doesn't nourish the blood lily you would need the potency to be higher than glare to even bother and lilies would then become a dps mechanic. If it does nourish the blood lily you basically have a dps positive heal window which no other healer has and you enter a bit of a balance nightmare situation.

The current iteration is so good because lily cost is equivalent to an ogcd cost. Anything that screws with this will basically break the mechanic. (short of adding something similar to other healers which we won't see this expansion). lilies should remain a healing mechanic for the time being.

[Hatstand]

The thing is, if it doesn't nourish the blood lily you would need the potency to be higher than glare to even bother and lilies would then become a dps mechanic. If it does nourish the blood lily you basically have a dps positive heal window which no other healer has and you enter a bit of a balance nightmare situation.

The current iteration is so good because lily cost is equivalent to an ogcd cost. Anything that screws with this will basically break the mechanic.

My suggestion (over in the WHM thread) was a potency 150 dps move that nourishes the blood lily for half as much as a heal. It'd delay your misery by 15 seconds, and so 150 potency would keep it dps neutral with misery. It would only be half the potency of a glare, so it'd have to be woven to be used effectively, but it would keep the timer on lily generation rolling. (And would give you a choice between a small bit of extra dps now and more later, since misery is aoe.)

It'd have niche uses. It'd be useful close to the end of a fight when you knew another misery wouldn't make it, or in dps checks that you haven't lined up correctly with your misery to help a bit with dps while weaving in your instant heals rather than clipping broil.

Then again, much like ruin 2 you'd probably have to double weave to keep it ahead of glare. Having such powerful nukes actually seems really bad for healers. It makes it hard for anything other than a nuke spam to be optimal. Maybe the right solution is to nerf glare. Then WHM could have a utility button like they’ve been asking for and we could also give them more interesting alternatives to glare without them being too OP.

[EaMett]

My suggestion (over in the WHM thread) was a potency 150 dps move that nourishes the blood lily for half as much as a heal. It'd delay your misery by 15 seconds, and so 150 potency would keep it dps neutral with misery. It would only be half the potency of a glare, so it'd have to be woven to be used effectively, but it would keep the timer on lily generation rolling. (And would give you a choice between a small bit of extra dps now and more later, since misery is aoe.)

It'd have niche uses. It'd be useful close to the end of a fight when you knew another misery wouldn't make it, or in dps checks that you haven't lined up correctly with your misery to help a bit with dps while weaving in your instant heals rather than clipping broil.

Then again, much like ruin 2 you'd probably have to double weave to keep it ahead of glare. Having such powerful nukes actually seems really bad for healers. It makes it hard for anything other than a nuke spam to be optimal. Maybe the right solution is to nerf glare. Then WHM could have a untilitu button like there been asking for and we could also give them more interesting alternatives to glare without them being too OP.

It's late so I'm going to think out loud here to make sure I don't make mistakes. Half a blood lily would be essentially equivalent to 112.5 potency. To which you add 150 for a total of 262.5 potency. Although that isn't a dps positive healing window it's still a cost opportunity of 40ish potency for a weave. If that's correct you end up having different cost opportunities for weaves among healers and that's really hard to balance properly. Even moreso considering they haven't managed to balance things before and decided to homogenize to make it easier. This would go against that.
We need to keep in mind that lilies are already such a good mechanic that you would still use them even if they did nothing other than feed the blood lily. It would still allow you to make small gains on your weaving.

All in all it's even harder to consider these types of changes when you have simpler options, like you could simply add potency to an existing skill "as is" with fluid aura. Add 80 potency which means it's basically only a dps gain if you weave it and call it a day. That alone would already be a good gameplay improvement. If you think WHM is in a good spot DPS wise currently you can even nerf a dot or something to make up for it.