Have we given up on SCH?

[Anselmet]

I'm not pressuming anything, some people are asking for buffs, some buffs that's going to break the job ( days ago someone did a wish list request for SCH skills to be applied that i became perplexed about it ), but there's people like you asking for skills and nerfs if necessary to be balanced in exchange for more options ( and i've seen you pointing that more than once ), not everyone is like you, in this thread and many others.

I'm pretty sure the mass majority would take shadow flare and all of our old dots back even if it meant nerfing our dps into the ground. Scholar (and honestly all healers) are so boring to play that I have left healing entirely to have a tank as my second main. I have never tanked seriously in this game until Shadowbringers and I was a sch main until Shadowbringers. It also hurts a lot more for sch mains to be reduced to three buttons because historically speaking we have always had more to our dps kits. I think whm and ast more or less lost one dot in their dps rotation between stormblood and shadowbringers. So in the dps factor having less to do hurts our gameplay a lot more than those of who mained the other healers. They don't feel it the same way we do. With energy drain restored we are still missing five or six different dps skills. What are you whms missing again? Aero III? Asts??? Oh no, how will you survive without your two different combust spells!!!

Edit: Might I add I think overall sch works but its boring. Its still a good healer its just dear god I have too much downtime in most fights and a man can only hit broil iii so many times before they want to pass out.

[DenzelVilliers]

...

About 50% it was metaphorical, but 50% nerf ( literally ) isn't a bad deal based on how much damage those skill was going to do, something to make SCH Damage be the same or close of it without overcome WHM ( who MUST have the highest DPS, because they don't have Utility and must shine in something ).

About non Healers main, the "main job" concept for you probably is: "i play and focus only on this job", to me is more like: "My resources, like Weekly drops goes first to this job", but i do play all Tanks and Healers everyday, obviously i do more preference for Tanks because they have specific Achievments to do, but i do play as Healer pretty much as well, if i want to farm some content and both tank slots is already unvailable, i go as Healer without think twice. That way i never get tired of playing with the same job over and over again, it's boring.

About Lilly to me is a great idea, when i play WHM their ogcd Heals are more than enough to keep Tank alive, Holy has the same Hollowed Ground effect for each pull + Regen + Divine Benison + Medica II or Asylum ( Assize / Tetragramaton when necessary ) is everything i need to clear each wave, i honestly don't remember the last time i casted Cure as WHM, Afflatus Solace is a rare casting for Heals and Afflatus Rapture sometimes i forget that is even there. At big pulls/Dungeon bosses i can say for sure that i use Afflatus Solace as overheal 90% of time, Afflatus Rapture 100% of time.
When i play as WHM in Full Party groups, nothing changes and sometimes is even worst since there's another one healing too. WHM are overhealing to build their gauge most of time, so in my point of view a Damage Skills is more than welcome, because if you must spent your stack and heal isn't need at that moment you can damage instead. Something similar that happens to me as SCH, if Afterflow CD is about to be ready and still have stacks on, i do apply Energy Drain in my rotation to make damage and recast Afterflow without lose my stacks or overheal for it.

Add Damage on Temperance is not about WHM personal DPS, is about Party Utility, i would mind at all if WHM wasn't affected by Temperance status in that situation ( just like BRD's Battle Voice ), the real point is that WHM must have something for Utility to bring at table as well not to increase their damage even more. SCH can cast a "Temperance skill" but better and faster each 30 secs ( 10% damage reduction + Regen ).

I do say SCH is on top of healing because in my personal Experience SCHs are easier to heal in ShB, they have many strong ogcd heals, Fairy, and more resources, soloing end-game content as SCH feels so much easier than WHM does ( AST i tried once and i failed, it was before their last updates i must say, i didn't tried again ).

[Hatstand]

Add Damage on Temperance is not about WHM personal DPS, is about Party Utility, i would mind at all if WHM wasn't affected by Temperance status in that situation ( just like BRD's Battle Voice ), the real point is that WHM must have something for Utility to bring at table as well not to increase their damage even more. SCH can cast a "Temperance skill" but better and faster each 30 secs ( 10% damage reduction + Regen ).

Offensive utility is only useful in the rDPS it has. WHM already has the highest rDPS out of any healer without any offensive utility. If you gave them offensive utility, you'd need to nerf their personal dps. If WHMs are happy with that, and would prefer a bit of utility in exchange for personal dps then I hope they get it, but to me, personally, pressing a button once every few minutes is even less interesting than maintaining the one button spam.

[EaMett]

( who MUST have the highest DPS, because they don't have Utility and must shine in something ).

This is an outdated way of seeing things. Currently everything is being measured in terms of rDPS (raid DPS). This basically takes all the extra damage done thanks to buffs away from the players that dealt it and gives it to the player that buffed.

There is currently no healer that needs to be ahead of another in rDPS, they should all be in the same ballpark. Atm whm is ahead and ast lagging behind. Of course it’s always been like this, but getting rDPS before was a little harder as you had to go through an extra step, whereas now a days it’s the default measurement on fflogs.

I’ll take a second to also say that WHM’s lead makes sense in the context of pDPS not scaling as well with gear as rDPS provided by raid buffs. But I’m of the mind that they should be balanced and then regularly buffed every tier just like BLM has been in the past.

About non Healers main, the "main job" concept for you probably is: "i play and focus only on this job", to me is more like: "My resources, like Weekly drops goes first to this job", but i do play all Tanks and Healers everyday, obviously i do more preference for Tanks because they have specific Achievments to do, but i do play as Healer pretty much as well, if i want to farm some content and both tank slots is already unvailable, i go as Healer without think twice. That way i never get tired of playing with the same job over and over again, it's boring.

We all have alt classes we play and more or less optimize.
By main I mean that you’re either a career healer, or you main healer in your static, or you’ve played healer so much and care enough that you’ve gone out and checked the optimization material online and have spent many hours practicing. The people that basically have a good understanding of the inner workings of the role/class. Not saying people can’t achieve this with multiple classes but if you feel like your game theory is more in depth on another role then odds are you aren’t a healer main.

The fact that you’re still going on about a 50% nerf being an ok deal, and how a dps lily is a great idea without addressing any of the concerns in the prior posts (as well as not providing numbers) is a little telling of not having full grasp over the inner workings and balance between healers.
Hatstand made a pretty compelling argument earlier for a dps lily, and although I disagreed with it being a balanced affair, he/she clearly understands WHM and did a great job of argumenting in favor of it.

About Lilly to me is a great idea, when i play WHM their ogcd Heals are more than enough to keep Tank alive, Holy has the same Hollowed Ground effect for each pull + Regen + Divine Benison + Medica II or Asylum ( Assize / Tetragramaton when necessary ) is everything i need to clear each wave, i honestly don't remember the last time i casted Cure as WHM, Afflatus Solace is a rare casting for Heals and Afflatus Rapture sometimes i forget that is even there. At big pulls/Dungeon bosses i can say for sure that i use Afflatus Solace as overheal 90% of time, Afflatus Rapture 100% of time.
When i play as WHM in Full Party groups, nothing changes and sometimes is even worst since there's another one healing too. WHM are overhealing to build their gauge most of time, so in my point of view a Damage Skills is more than welcome, because if you must spent your stack and heal isn't need at that moment you can damage instead. Something similar that happens to me as SCH, if Afterflow CD is about to be ready and still have stacks on, i do apply Energy Drain in my rotation to make damage and recast Afterflow without lose my stacks or overheal.

A few things here. In addition to the above response and the other posts in this thread that talk about this, let me just say that other healers also have skills they don’t need to use in dungeons (or even ex trials). I’m referring to some of your comments about temperance, which you should be using anyways as extra mitigation even if it means only doing so while picking packs up.

As far as lilies go I don’t understand. In dungeons especially you should always use lilies before your ogcd heals. The payoff for using misery on a pack of mobs is so big that it’s totally worth it . Even more so from the fact that you’re probably clipping your holy spam with your ogcds in the first place. On bosses or during downtime it’s even more important to prep misery for future packs.

In full party scenarios you can use them interchangeably with your ogcds although the better scenario is to weave your ogcds into them and carry the healing.

In any case it doesn’t matter if you overheal them since they still add value and should be used.

Comparing lilies and af for the purpose of a lily dump is missing the point of the mechanic. Lilies provide both healing and dps, af stacks provide either one or the other. In a way lilies already are their own stack dump, as like I’ve already said you can still get use out of them even if you overheal.

[Tahldon]

I don't always comment on the threads as I'd rather 'like' similar posts that convey a similar sentiment that I would've said anyhow.

But, it's disheartening that there is no word, high or low, from Dev. team regarding the philosophy behind the healing changes or possible amendments of the jobs thereof in accordance to feedback. Seeing the DPS players get immediate adjustments and encouragement to continue to give feedback, genuinely, doesn't feel good as a healer main (a long time one, at that).

We've been seeing healer experience being pruned back more and more and more over time and it's very tiring to continue to do virtual somersaults to get the Dev's attention to explain how we feel about the experience only to be met with silence.

Admittedly, I've always been a bit of a "bloodthirsty" healer in that I very much enjoy doing something along with the healing. Overall, I love healing, but being able to do "something fun" on the side after the healing is done was a huge part of the experience. I can't say how many times, I've literally thought to myself "Man, I love being a healer!" while DPSing and Micromanaging my Fae as SCH or managing buffs as an AST. I just really enjoyed being able to push the boundary of healing and aiding the party simultaneously. Now, these experiences are significantly subdued.

To me, it feels a little like... everyone but the healers are the ones dictating the experience of a Healer. I can't entirely explain it, per se. But it definitely feels that way.. and it's depressing in a sense.

[Connor]

Want to throw my own views in here as a Scholar main.

The job is definitely quite boring overall. But (I wish there wasn’t a but lol), I don’t think simply giving the job more DoT abilities would really solve this issue. From what I understand it simply adds more steps to what we’re doing now, but with more effort to put in than White Mage / Astrologian. Which, while isn’t really a problem itself, I don’t think would make the job more interesting to play overall since we’re ultimately just delaying when we go back to Broil spam by two GCDs.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting more DoTs, but I sadly just don’t think I can agree that having more DoTs that exist just to give us more DoTs would add enough to make the class more interesting. It’s not the DoTs or dealing damage that I have any issue with as much as the idea of having abilities that are just more of the same damage over time output abilities. That’s not to say that we shouldn’t get more DoTs, but I think they should be ones that have a purpose beyond dealing direct damage over time. Even if it was something silly like the Heavy effect Miasma used to have, or the Slow effect on Shadowflare.

Adding to that, I find myself really missing the utility / situational abilities Scholar used to have. Things like Eye for an Eye, Virus, Fey Wind, Shadowflare, Fey Caress, Silent Dusk, etc. I loved in 2.0 when the concept for Scholar was that it had lower potency heals and a lot of situational abilities that could become extremely powerful when used together strategically. Supporting the party with buffs and DoTs, debuffiing enemies, shielding party members, all of which were weak on the surface, but when used strategically could turn the tide of battle completely. That’s what I feel like Scholar should be personally.

If you ask Alka Zolka what a Scholar ‘is’, the first thing he mentions is that their role could be describe as providing support, but that this doesn’t adequately describe the full extent of their capabilities. What set them apart was the manner in which they employed their magicks, by binding and commanding the entities known as fairies. I always felt like the way the jobs were described was supposed to portray how the job was intended to play.

Scholar always seemed more oriented towards support than offense to me because of that which I do understand is different from how the majority of the Scholar community view the job. And I’m not suggesting that being oriented towards ‘support’ means it can’t have more varied DPS mechanics, but in my view the damage shouldn’t be the main focus of the job.

I haven’t ‘given up’ on Scholar as much as I’ve resigned myself to accepting that sometimes what I’d like to see doesn’t match what others would like to see. And it’s not really fair to try and push what I want onto others if they want something different. So I decided that the best course to take is to let others give their feedback, leave my own, and whatever majority rises will dictate what kind of things the should have.

I guess what I mean is, I haven’t given up on Scholar as much as decided to let others lead the fight

[Almostward]

Want to know something sad. I played a bit WoW Classic, and it's alright but not the point. Priest is a class in the game from 2004. It has way more moves and diversity than the healers in FF14 that I find it laughable how healers are delt with in this game. I know they are diffrent games.

They have many attacks, heals, buffs and such, but what saddens me is that these devs are doing what the WoW devs did. Simplifying everything as much as possibly so anyone can play it despite some player feeback. They would rather have a class everyone can play rather than a class that requires some skill and is fun.

That's what happend to WoW. The devs kept taking everything out so anyone could play, and the community hated it. Now it seems everyone jumped to classic cause of how levels and skills work.

Just a small rant. Sad they are still ignoring healers.

[GhostXO]

I'm usually not very vocal on forums like these, but my frustrations with scholar are usually the only things that actually get me to speak up. The class has just become really boring to play and the fairy feels so clunky. I gave it a go for a few levels (and I'll probably get around to getting it to 80 through MSQ roullette...) but in actual content I just can't play it without feeling frustrated. With the strange lack of feedback from the devs about scholar (or any healer for that matter) and people seemingly getting quieter about scholars issues, I have sort of given up on it. I'm still upset about all of the healers feeling sort of...bad to play, but especially scholar. My disapproval is just quiet. It's my silent refusal to ever touch the class for actual content ever again—unless it's changed, of course.

[Saefinn]

Want to know something sad. I played a bit WoW Classic, and it's alright but not the point. Priest is a class in the game from 2004. It has way more moves and diversity than the healers in FF14 that I find it laughable how healers are delt with in this game. I know they are diffrent games.

They have many attacks, heals, buffs and such, but what saddens me is that these devs are doing what the WoW devs did. Simplifying everything as much as possibly so anyone can play it despite some player feeback. They would rather have a class everyone can play rather than a class that requires some skill and is fun.

That's what happend to WoW. The devs kept taking everything out so anyone could play, and the community hated it. Now it seems everyone jumped to classic cause of how levels and skills work.

Just a small rant. Sad they are still ignoring healers.

I think SE should embrace the idea of a difficulty ranking. It works for some Korean MMO's I've played when they will use stars to mark the difficulty of the class and this game has loosely had difficulty ranking, but they've been watering it down.

Back in 2.0, WHM was easier to play than SCH. My recommendation to people who were completely new to healing would be to try WHM/CNJ first because they'd find it easier to learn as it's more forgiving. But would happily offer advice/tips if they wanted to play SCH.

Back in 3.0 the tanks had a similar thing. PLD was the simplest & tankiest of tanks to play. WAR was kinda in the middle and DRK had a lot of resource management and a lot of juggling and was the least beginner friend of the 3, but it was something I quite liked and why I gave up my WAR in place of DRK.

And at present, DPS have it, RDM is simple to play & still fun if you're experienced, BLM is more difficult to play because of resource management and lack of mobility versus RDM and SMN has a complicated rotation that's harder to master and overwhelming at first glance.

Make WHM the beginner friendly one. SCH the intermediate but technical one. And AST the harder but versatile one that has to juggle both play styles.

I don't think the answer is to dumb things down to make them easy. But to make a choice as to what's more accessible to complete beginners and what should better suit those who want something more complicated. I'm a guy who likes job complexity. I'm all for inexperienced or more casual players being accommodated for, but I feel dumbing stuff down is not the answer. Hence I think some kind of tiered or ranked system works. In a way, content already accommodates this, because we have varying tiers of difficulty in content. So let's just add that philosophy into job design too.

[Datara]

I'm seeing a lot of talk on the number of DoT about scholar but not much about what i think is the problem at the moment.

In my opinion scholar has been cut down way too heavily from what it was.
In Stormblood it had many (too many?) spells to chain up either if you wanted to do damage or heal.

The multiple DoTs to chain with the spreading of them took a big part of its cycle if you wanted to use it fully.
In that regard, reducing it to a single DoT wasn't that outlandish a choice imo. The one i think weird though is getting the spread fonctionality out, as it was made to cleverly initiate a fight by putting DoT and then focusing on healing. They took it out as well as the energy drain (later reintroduced) making it basically unable to use any offensive spells with aether.

The second thing i find odd is getting the fairies specificity out. Eos and Selene are now just color swaps, and the gcd buffing capability is gone, which is odd seeing how it could have been improved instead of taken out. Seraph is "ok" i guess, if not a bit weak for its cooldown and using it doesn't really impact the basic fairy skills that much.
All in all i think they shoould have bet a bit more on the faery gauge for actions.
For example let Selene and Eos have specificities but use the faery gauge to be able to swap between the both of them.

Healers seem to have taken the bottom of the barel concerning the work done on them.
I still enjoy SCH, just wish it was a bit more.