Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

[Shurrikhan]

Edit: Confusion cleared up.

I actually agree with you everything you're saying. I think we basically just don't mean the same thing with the word "active". Things like that happen sometimes and I may be the one mistaking then. Might be just a "feel" thing.

I'd like to respond on the TBN issue that has been discussed a few times recently tho. People wanting it to become free are really starting to worry me. Do you want every job to just do everything for free ? Just press a button anytime and you get things ? How is that fun ? They've already ruined WAR with this mindset, please don't take DRK away.

We have yet to argue about Dark Arts, though? The topic of our replies to each other was specifically Darkside, a mechanic entirely separate from TBN.

I've never advocated that TBN should be outright free. Ever. Generally speaking, I've only ever advocated for increased complexity and depth for DRK, not less. I dislike the new Delirium, and much preferred old Inner Release, though I would have preferred that it also double BG generation over its duration so that it had a bit less delay to its effectiveness in dungeons.

Admittedly, separate from any discussion with you, I have advocated that TBN should have a lower %HP absorption -- from 25% to 20% -- for two reasons: (1) it otherwise becomes nearly impossible to pop when badly overgearing dungeons during their forced single-pack pulls (think Twinning first pull), and (2) it's just straight up overpowered at the moment, and I believe its 15-second CD is far more vital to its gameplay than its %HP margin, especially given that even the mere 15% given in SB seemed pretty darn impactful over time. But that's it. You're barking up the wrong tree here. If I've misunderstood, and you've used the second person without reference to the person you've quoted directly prior, I apologize, but for now you appear to be putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of my own arguments.

Edit: To be clear, I like the risk-reward component of TBN. I just don't think it should be susceptible to fundamental scaling issues (as above when incoming damage in dungeons at no mitigation, slows, or stuns, are still too low to pop TBN) or, to a far lesser degree, counter-intuitive design (99% use is 100% cost, but mitigating that 1% more gives it... 0 cost). Which is a lot like how I feel about Living Dead (greater maximum HP = harder to pop LD itself in time if precasting for trimmed CD and --far more importantly-- greater WD healing requirement).

[Seku]

1. That would remove any risk to arguably the most powerful mitigation/sustain-over-time CD in the game outside of Nascent Flash-Chaotic Cyclone-Chaotic Cyclone-Decimate-Decimate on trash.
2. That's fine, actually.
3. Why? You just gave that over to Abyssal Drain, and Stalwart Soul is already powerful enough to make Quietus painfully situational in trash where you can make use of TBN on CD.
4. RI blocks all damage. Camouflage is the only other typal mitigation, via parry, but even it has a universal mitigation component to an average total of 15% mitigation. RI, like Shelltron, are also not equivalents to DM. Their slot equivalents are effectively Thrill of Battle on Warrior and non-existent (replaced by base block chance) on Paladin.
5. Passage of Arms is a longer CD which costs the PLD its movement, any further mitigation opportunities, and its uptime -- in many ways the most punishing CD in the game if used outside of jump phases, especially given that the buff can still be slow to apply to higher-latency party members, making it difficult to reliably weave. There is absolutely no way DRK should have something stronger than that, "anti-magic" tank or no.

1. As stated by someone else earlier, there can be other draw backs placed with it, or re-arranged into something more balanced. As is though The blackest Night is DPS neutral and if you don't break the shield, you lose out. I'd rather see a bigger reward attached to it, such as a DPS gain. Because just about anything else that they could (or rather be willing to) apply would be seen as bad.
3. Because Abyssal drain is attached to a CD and Dark Knight has no drain abilities that really stick out. I suppose you could also apply it to Qutis, that would be cool too.
4. Did not know that (that's what I get for not playing Warrior right away). This only further's my argument though that Dark Mind should be a bit stronger or block both damage types.
5. That all sounds like a knee-jerk reaction. I'd have personally mention the range and how cumbersome it can be to use as a main tank. But in either case, I still believe Dark Missonary should be 15-20% party mitigation for aoe damage due to the fact it's magic only, simply due to the fact that unlike Passage of arms, you don't have a knee-jerk reaction. You have to learn what the aoe is and in any type of raid damage where you are facing physical damage, it becomes useless. Point being that if something is niche, that ability in said niche should be powerful.

[Ultimatecalibur]

1. As stated by someone else earlier, there can be other draw backs placed with it, or re-arranged into something more balanced. As is though The blackest Night is DPS neutral and if you don't break the shield, you lose out. I'd rather see a bigger reward attached to it, such as a DPS gain. Because just about anything else that they could (or rather be willing to) apply would be seen as bad.

DpS gains are bad as it would more than likely force Dark Knights into the MT position. This goes against why most of the counter attack actions were removed.

5. That all sounds like a knee-jerk reaction. I'd have personally mention the range and how cumbersome it can be to use as a main tank. But in either case, I still believe Dark Missonary should be 15-20% party mitigation for aoe damage due to the fact it's magic only, simply due to the fact that unlike Passage of arms, you don't have a knee-jerk reaction. You have to learn what the aoe is and in any type of raid damage where you are facing physical damage, it becomes useless. Point being that if something is niche, that ability in said niche should be powerful.

I'm pretty certain that there are no non-Shadow non-Magic damage raidwides. While Dark Missionary might look inferior in a vacuum, in practice Dark Missionary and Heart of Light are equal save for cases where HoL is used to protect the MT from physical attacks.

[Freyyy]

But that's it. You're barking up the wrong tree here. If I've misunderstood, and you've used the second person without reference to the person you've quoted directly prior, I apologize, but for now you appear to be putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of my own arguments.

Edit: To be clear, I like the risk-reward component of TBN. I just don't think it should be susceptible to fundamental scaling issues (as above when incoming damage in dungeons at no mitigation, slows, or stuns, are still too low to pop TBN) or, to a far lesser degree, counter-intuitive design (99% use is 100% cost, but mitigating that 1% more gives it... 0 cost). Which is a lot like how I feel about Living Dead (greater maximum HP = harder to pop LD itself in time if precasting for trimmed CD and --far more importantly-- greater WD healing requirement).

Oh sorry I might have been unclear, I wasn't directing the whole TBN part to you at all. I just wanted to respond to all the people I've seen complain about its MP cost since Xeno mentionned it a few weeks ago. I know that you didn't advocate for that yourself, the only part in my post that was answering to your quote is the very first part. I tend to agree with most of the posts I see from you on these forums. Sorry if it seemed like I was directing this towards you. I just edited the post to better seperate both parts.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh sorry I might have been unclear, I wasn't directing the whole TBN part to you at all. I just wanted to respond to all the people I've seen complain about its MP cost since Xeno mentionned it a few weeks ago. I know that you didn't advocate for that yourself, the only part in my post that was answering to your quote is the very first part. I tend to agree with most of the posts I see from you on these forums. Sorry if it seemed like I was directing this towards you. I just edited the post to better seperate both parts.

Ahh, got it. And in that case, as above -- my apologies for not giving you the benefit of the doubt especially against my own defensiveness/confusion.

Out of curiosity, how do you think we might spare the risk-reward component of TBN without leaving its current (I'd have to imagine, unintended) design vulnerabilities?

[Shurrikhan]

5. That all sounds like a knee-jerk reaction. I'd have personally mention the range and how cumbersome it can be to use as a main tank. But in either case, I still believe Dark Missonary should be 15-20% party mitigation for aoe damage due to the fact it's magic only, simply due to the fact that unlike Passage of arms, you don't have a knee-jerk reaction. You have to learn what the aoe is and in any type of raid damage where you are facing physical damage, it becomes useless. Point being that if something is niche, that ability in said niche should be powerful.

Okay, let's review.

HW Dark Mind. 60-second cooldown. 15% mitigation. 30% on Dark Arts. Comparable to Equilibrium, which would usually heal for far more than DM's base absorption.
HW Dark Dance. 60-second cooldown. 30% increased chance of ~25% physical mitigation. 20% chance 100% mitigation to all damage types on Dark Arts. Comparable, again, to Equilibrium, which would usually heal for more than DD's base absorption.

Are these (1) a sign of DRK being an "anti-magic tank" or (2) simply a "tank" with a more discreet potency-cost option for its increased mitigation, comparable to, say, Inner Beast (without the necessary stance-swap and attached 10-second committal)?

HW Delirium. 10% Intelligence down. Compare to HW PLD's Rage of Halone for 10% Strength down and HW WAR Storm's Path for 10% damage down.

Again, is this that (1) DRK was uniquely an anti-magic tank or (2) WAR was uniquely (and perhaps overly) versatile?

I would argue the latter in both cases. WAR was generally right up there as an anti-magic tank. DRK simply allowed for more discreet and layered control over its kit.

If you're going to call preferring that one tank's only percentile AoE mitigation -- at a greater cooldown and far lesser applicability than, and massive cost relative to, Dark Missionary -- should be weaker than the far more easily utilized and shorter cooldown DRK percentile AoE mitigation tool, then at least show me, definitively, how XIV DRK's primary theme was that it was "anti-caster" despite having little to no eHP advantage against magic over the other tanks in HW and SB respectively.

tl;dr: DRK is not an anti-magic tank, never has been, and hopefully never will be, because that would just be an outright nerf without any real addition of identity. It's identity was more numerous and precise means of manipulation, or trade-offs, in its mitigation toolkit and above-average counter-play. And, unwittingly or not, you're asking that such an identity would be even further squished just to push DRK towards a state in which it is faintly advantaged in certain fights and effectively banned from the rest.

Also,

While Dark Missionary might look inferior in a vacuum, in practice Dark Missionary and Heart of Light are equal save for cases where HoL is used to protect the MT from physical attacks.

The two skills are identical.
Heart of Light: 15y range. 90-second CD. 15-second duration. 10% magic-only mitigation.
Dark Missionary: 15y range. 90-second CD. 15-second duration. 10% magic-only mitigation.

[Absimiliard]

People calling DRK an anti-magic tank are basically unknowingly trying to hamstring it. Current Dark Mind already sucks. Why cling to an already half-baked perception at the cost of efficacy instead of demanding that current Dark Mind be de-suckified? As for Dark Missionary, that should probably have been something like Celes's runic ability instead of slightly inferior carbon copy of Heart of Light.

[shao32]

Current Heart of light and dark missionary are clones with different animation none is superior neither inferior to the other actually.

[Reynhart]

DpS gains are bad as it would more than likely force Dark Knights into the MT position. This goes against why most of the counter attack actions were removed.

Just put TBN on the other tank.

[Arsthan]

DpS gains are bad as it would more than likely force Dark Knights into the MT position. This goes against why most of the counter attack actions were removed.

I don't quite see as to why it would force DRKs into MTing? Sure, it is slightly easier to use it without a target so you as the DRK get it, but that's far from a reason why it would make him a better MT. You can still use it as the OT, even if it's slightly more annoying to target the MT with it, but like... that definitely is not a good reason when you can macro it (I'm not completely advocating to macro it, you still have way more control over it when you just do it manually). And targeting someone manually is more about getting used to it, nothing hard there.

In fact, a DPS gain on TBN would turn TBN into an actual mechanic for DRK, rather than a defensive CD. Currently, you have little reason to use it outside of tank busters, but if you give it a DPS gain, you suddenly want to pop as many TBNs in a fight as you possibly can. This would result in bigger gap between good and bad players, which is exactly the opposite of what SE tries to achieve. However; I do think that a gap between players is important for the game. People who plan to stick with the game would want to get better and better at a job they play, but when there's little room for improvement, it mostly becomes "Why bother? If I'm playing mostly perfectly whithout any practice, is there really a need to try harder when there's no actual reward other than bragging rights?".

As to what would be considered a DPS gain, the plain and easy way is to make EoS a direct crit under DA. Personally, I think that'd be boring. I'd much rather see something like a DoT, an attack speed buff or keeping the current DA effect while giving back some MP to increase the usage of EoS throughout the fight. While we're at it, please keep it 3k MP, lowering the MP would be a DPS increase too, but you also lower the risk of the skill.