Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

[Seku]

1. That would remove any risk to arguably the most powerful mitigation/sustain-over-time CD in the game outside of Nascent Flash-Chaotic Cyclone-Chaotic Cyclone-Decimate-Decimate on trash.
2. That's fine, actually.
3. Why? You just gave that over to Abyssal Drain, and Stalwart Soul is already powerful enough to make Quietus painfully situational in trash where you can make use of TBN on CD.
4. RI blocks all damage. Camouflage is the only other typal mitigation, via parry, but even it has a universal mitigation component to an average total of 15% mitigation. RI, like Shelltron, are also not equivalents to DM. Their slot equivalents are effectively Thrill of Battle on Warrior and non-existent (replaced by base block chance) on Paladin.
5. Passage of Arms is a longer CD which costs the PLD its movement, any further mitigation opportunities, and its uptime -- in many ways the most punishing CD in the game if used outside of jump phases, especially given that the buff can still be slow to apply to higher-latency party members, making it difficult to reliably weave. There is absolutely no way DRK should have something stronger than that, "anti-magic" tank or no.

1. As stated by someone else earlier, there can be other draw backs placed with it, or re-arranged into something more balanced. As is though The blackest Night is DPS neutral and if you don't break the shield, you lose out. I'd rather see a bigger reward attached to it, such as a DPS gain. Because just about anything else that they could (or rather be willing to) apply would be seen as bad.
3. Because Abyssal drain is attached to a CD and Dark Knight has no drain abilities that really stick out. I suppose you could also apply it to Qutis, that would be cool too.
4. Did not know that (that's what I get for not playing Warrior right away). This only further's my argument though that Dark Mind should be a bit stronger or block both damage types.
5. That all sounds like a knee-jerk reaction. I'd have personally mention the range and how cumbersome it can be to use as a main tank. But in either case, I still believe Dark Missonary should be 15-20% party mitigation for aoe damage due to the fact it's magic only, simply due to the fact that unlike Passage of arms, you don't have a knee-jerk reaction. You have to learn what the aoe is and in any type of raid damage where you are facing physical damage, it becomes useless. Point being that if something is niche, that ability in said niche should be powerful.

[Ultimatecalibur]

1. As stated by someone else earlier, there can be other draw backs placed with it, or re-arranged into something more balanced. As is though The blackest Night is DPS neutral and if you don't break the shield, you lose out. I'd rather see a bigger reward attached to it, such as a DPS gain. Because just about anything else that they could (or rather be willing to) apply would be seen as bad.

DpS gains are bad as it would more than likely force Dark Knights into the MT position. This goes against why most of the counter attack actions were removed.

5. That all sounds like a knee-jerk reaction. I'd have personally mention the range and how cumbersome it can be to use as a main tank. But in either case, I still believe Dark Missonary should be 15-20% party mitigation for aoe damage due to the fact it's magic only, simply due to the fact that unlike Passage of arms, you don't have a knee-jerk reaction. You have to learn what the aoe is and in any type of raid damage where you are facing physical damage, it becomes useless. Point being that if something is niche, that ability in said niche should be powerful.

I'm pretty certain that there are no non-Shadow non-Magic damage raidwides. While Dark Missionary might look inferior in a vacuum, in practice Dark Missionary and Heart of Light are equal save for cases where HoL is used to protect the MT from physical attacks.

[Reynhart]

DpS gains are bad as it would more than likely force Dark Knights into the MT position. This goes against why most of the counter attack actions were removed.

Just put TBN on the other tank.

[Arsthan]

DpS gains are bad as it would more than likely force Dark Knights into the MT position. This goes against why most of the counter attack actions were removed.

I don't quite see as to why it would force DRKs into MTing? Sure, it is slightly easier to use it without a target so you as the DRK get it, but that's far from a reason why it would make him a better MT. You can still use it as the OT, even if it's slightly more annoying to target the MT with it, but like... that definitely is not a good reason when you can macro it (I'm not completely advocating to macro it, you still have way more control over it when you just do it manually). And targeting someone manually is more about getting used to it, nothing hard there.

In fact, a DPS gain on TBN would turn TBN into an actual mechanic for DRK, rather than a defensive CD. Currently, you have little reason to use it outside of tank busters, but if you give it a DPS gain, you suddenly want to pop as many TBNs in a fight as you possibly can. This would result in bigger gap between good and bad players, which is exactly the opposite of what SE tries to achieve. However; I do think that a gap between players is important for the game. People who plan to stick with the game would want to get better and better at a job they play, but when there's little room for improvement, it mostly becomes "Why bother? If I'm playing mostly perfectly whithout any practice, is there really a need to try harder when there's no actual reward other than bragging rights?".

As to what would be considered a DPS gain, the plain and easy way is to make EoS a direct crit under DA. Personally, I think that'd be boring. I'd much rather see something like a DoT, an attack speed buff or keeping the current DA effect while giving back some MP to increase the usage of EoS throughout the fight. While we're at it, please keep it 3k MP, lowering the MP would be a DPS increase too, but you also lower the risk of the skill.

[Reynhart]

I'd much rather see something like a DoT, an attack speed buff or keeping the current DA effect while giving back some MP to increase the usage of EoS throughout the fight.

I posted earlier something like that. You give a 15s duration to Dark Arts, you still spend it to have a free Edge/Flood but while Dark Arts is active, you gain a speed boost. So if you want to take the most out of TBN, you wouldn't use it if you need to reapply Darkside really soon.

[Shurrikhan]

5. That all sounds like a knee-jerk reaction. I'd have personally mention the range and how cumbersome it can be to use as a main tank. But in either case, I still believe Dark Missonary should be 15-20% party mitigation for aoe damage due to the fact it's magic only, simply due to the fact that unlike Passage of arms, you don't have a knee-jerk reaction. You have to learn what the aoe is and in any type of raid damage where you are facing physical damage, it becomes useless. Point being that if something is niche, that ability in said niche should be powerful.

Okay, let's review.

HW Dark Mind. 60-second cooldown. 15% mitigation. 30% on Dark Arts. Comparable to Equilibrium, which would usually heal for far more than DM's base absorption.
HW Dark Dance. 60-second cooldown. 30% increased chance of ~25% physical mitigation. 20% chance 100% mitigation to all damage types on Dark Arts. Comparable, again, to Equilibrium, which would usually heal for more than DD's base absorption.

Are these (1) a sign of DRK being an "anti-magic tank" or (2) simply a "tank" with a more discreet potency-cost option for its increased mitigation, comparable to, say, Inner Beast (without the necessary stance-swap and attached 10-second committal)?

HW Delirium. 10% Intelligence down. Compare to HW PLD's Rage of Halone for 10% Strength down and HW WAR Storm's Path for 10% damage down.

Again, is this that (1) DRK was uniquely an anti-magic tank or (2) WAR was uniquely (and perhaps overly) versatile?

I would argue the latter in both cases. WAR was generally right up there as an anti-magic tank. DRK simply allowed for more discreet and layered control over its kit.

If you're going to call preferring that one tank's only percentile AoE mitigation -- at a greater cooldown and far lesser applicability than, and massive cost relative to, Dark Missionary -- should be weaker than the far more easily utilized and shorter cooldown DRK percentile AoE mitigation tool, then at least show me, definitively, how XIV DRK's primary theme was that it was "anti-caster" despite having little to no eHP advantage against magic over the other tanks in HW and SB respectively.

tl;dr: DRK is not an anti-magic tank, never has been, and hopefully never will be, because that would just be an outright nerf without any real addition of identity. It's identity was more numerous and precise means of manipulation, or trade-offs, in its mitigation toolkit and above-average counter-play. And, unwittingly or not, you're asking that such an identity would be even further squished just to push DRK towards a state in which it is faintly advantaged in certain fights and effectively banned from the rest.

Also,

While Dark Missionary might look inferior in a vacuum, in practice Dark Missionary and Heart of Light are equal save for cases where HoL is used to protect the MT from physical attacks.

The two skills are identical.
Heart of Light: 15y range. 90-second CD. 15-second duration. 10% magic-only mitigation.
Dark Missionary: 15y range. 90-second CD. 15-second duration. 10% magic-only mitigation.

[Seku]

Okay, let's review.

HW Dark Mind. 60-second cooldown. 15% mitigation. 30% on Dark Arts. Comparable to Equilibrium, which would usually heal for far more than DM's base absorption.
HW Dark Dance. 60-second cooldown. 30% increased chance of ~25% physical mitigation. 20% chance 100% mitigation to all damage types on Dark Arts. Comparable, again, to Equilibrium, which would usually heal for more than DD's base absorption.

Are these (1) a sign of DRK being an "anti-magic tank" or (2) simply a "tank" with a more discreet potency-cost option for its increased mitigation, comparable to, say, Inner Beast (without the necessary stance-swap and attached 10-second committal)?

HW Delirium. 10% Intelligence down. Compare to HW PLD's Rage of Halone for 10% Strength down and HW WAR Storm's Path for 10% damage down.

Again, is this that (1) DRK was uniquely an anti-magic tank or (2) WAR was uniquely (and perhaps overly) versatile?

I would argue the latter in both cases. WAR was generally right up there as an anti-magic tank. DRK simply allowed for more discreet and layered control over its kit.

If you're going to call preferring that one tank's only percentile AoE mitigation -- at a greater cooldown and far lesser applicability than, and massive cost relative to, Dark Missionary -- should be weaker than the far more easily utilized and shorter cooldown DRK percentile AoE mitigation tool, then at least show me, definitively, how XIV DRK's primary theme was that it was "anti-caster" despite having little to no eHP advantage against magic over the other tanks in HW and SB respectively.

tl;dr: DRK is not an anti-magic tank, never has been, and hopefully never will be, because that would just be an outright nerf without any real addition of identity. It's identity was more numerous and precise means of manipulation, or trade-offs, in its mitigation toolkit and above-average counter-play. And, unwittingly or not, you're asking that such an identity would be even further squished just to push DRK towards a state in which it is faintly advantaged in certain fights and effectively banned from the rest.

Also,
The two skills are identical.
Heart of Light: 15y range. 90-second CD. 15-second duration. 10% magic-only mitigation.
Dark Missionary: 15y range. 90-second CD. 15-second duration. 10% magic-only mitigation.

1. Signs that it was a magical tank. It being pushed out of MT role for physical fights was actually a major argument. The only reason it did so well in savage content was due to the fact that most Tank busters were magical. TBN assisted in some what fixing this in stormsblood and still does so today.

2. Signs that DRK was being pushed to magic tank, PLD to physical (more so since shieldtron only blocked physical attacks and for the 30%, which is the same as Dark Mind buffed) and yes Warrior was overtuned. So I'd have to say both were true. The only reason that DRK was taken in by groups is due to the limit break bar being filled at a slower rate due to taking multiple of the same job.

Why would I need to show you the eHP? Dark Knight's defensive kit pushes towards magical mitigation, regardless of how useful or useless it is. Why is it that Dark Knight is the only tank that has a personal cool down that still blocks only one damage type? Then their aoe reduction is also magical as well? Why not instead follow up with more shielding, like TBN and push DRK more towards a Tank that instead puts up shields for incoming damage? -- This is what makes it the "anti-magic" tank, it's current kit pushes towards it and they stripped away the other options you mentioned that it had during previous expansions.

For instance, GNB now has a parry and damage reduction ability (Camouflage), why doesn't Drk have this in the form of Dark Dance? Why not have dark have an ability where they can parry both magic and physical attacks, get rid of dark mind, put Dark Dance back, see about re-working the cool down and give it a cool animation when that particular parry(s) happens? Because SE deemed it would be better that they have abilities that focused on lowering magical damage only - that's why.

The abilities can be exactly the same, GNB probably needs a slight boost too or they need to re-work them as it only blocks one type of damage.

Spoken like a true savage raider who has no respect for the rest of the games content. So nothing else matters till you get to the "real" game? Which Savage is? We shouldn't worry what happens to anyone in the first 79 levels or the MSQ? Balance doesn't matter at all? Thank god you and your ignorance aren't on the dev team that's all I can say. Given you seem to have forgotten in terms of utility DRK had...

* Dark Passenger to blind mobs for mitigation (oh my god though you had to press an extra button for DA!)

* Carve and spit where you had the =choice= for MP regen or extra damage (OMG DA SPAM!)

* Blood Price where DRK could more easily sustain MP during mass pulls to keep TBN and AD up

* Blood weapon with extra regen AND attack speed to bring more dps to the table if that floated your boat, making DRK excellent OT's since it was a non tank stance buff.

* Delirium providing extra uptime to both of the above instead of just being a warrior wannabe burst window

* Quietus providing a meaningful use in terms of sustain with mp regen per hit, unlike it's near uselessness now, and being rapidly outclassed by stalwart soul combo.

* Abyssal Drain providing mass HP regen on mass pulls, and the "utility" powers to make sure you could keep it going. Without being locked on a cooldown that makes it even more useless

* TBN giving blood instead of this new broken DA where you either lose dps, or gain one extra free hit, and just replacing one brand of DA spam with another for a DPS boost that is barely even noticeable. Unlike the old version where you had a =choice= with 50 blood to deal extra dps or gain extra mp regen. And the MP regen skills that gave a wider skill window unlike the current 123 BS spam we have now.

But DRK didn't have any utility... Ah but I forgot none of the above matters to you, because it's just progression play, and only scrubs do that, we don't need to worry about anything but savage right? *eyeroll*

1. Spoken like a normally sane person. Savage content is the peak of performance. That means that anything up to it is going to be vastly easier
2. All of those abilities you just mentioned aren't utility save for The Blackest Night, which doubles as a personal cool down as well pending on the situation. Utility are abilities that assist other players.

Examples:
Monks Brotherhood
Dragoons battle latency and Dragon Sight
Dark Knights Dark missionary.
Paladin's Passage of arms.
Paladin's Aoe Shield that is annoying to proct.
Ect.

3. You should ask for quality of life changes, as there are issues there. Some jobs may be annoying at lower levels due to the order we get our abilities, but there isn't any issue with clearing any of the content, unless the player or other people in the player's group are having issues grasping mechanics or how a particular job works.