Something about the new Ascian lore

[Lauront]

I don't even think "moral relativism" is the right term here, even though he used it - it's more that they don't consider most life forms following the Sundering to be relevant to moral considerations at all. It's a two step thing - 1) they poured in a great deal of sacrifice to get their world back up and running and 2) they had intended for Zodiark to cede some power, after the world was nurtured, and restore those who were sacrificed. To then have half the aether of the world consumed and have it sundered, resulting in beings nigh unrecognisable to them, it becomes clearer that there is absolutely no reason why they would see anything coming thereafter as legitimate forms of existence. This applies even if they did not intend to restore the sacrificed, since by all accounts, those who gave themselves unto Zodiark to restore the world did so freely and this was down to the nature of the original race, something Emet-Selch himself brings up. They want things restored as to how they were and were not responsible for the Sundering.

Now had Emet-Selch, the Convocation and those who sacrificed to summon Zodiark themselves been responsible for Hydaelyn and what followed, then there's more of a case as to why their viewpoint would be illogical or hypocritical - but they were not. On their view, to restore life to how it was all the aether broken up across woulds would have to be re-assembled. Thus, he thinks the potential of such post-Sundering lifeforms is inherently stunted. Also, whilst the Ascians stir the pot, let's not pretend there wouldn't be conflicts without them. They merely engineer their scale and exploit existing opportunities. It is precisely this perceived imperfection in man that they are utilising to realise their ends. By all accounts, their race did not necessarily lack similar impulses but had learnt to transcend and manage them. They don't think the sundered lifeforms even have it in them to get to that point, where 75% of the race would condone to sacrificing itself to save its world, cleaning up whatever mess plagued it.

Moreover, it is revealed in the end that you are one of them; no less, in all probability, the member who left the Convocation, thus why you can contend with them, albeit in Emet-Selch's case with a lot of help and circumstantial advantages (i.e. the built up corrupted Light.) That really doesn't serve to do much to undermine his case.

The fact that some of Emet-Selch's own people summoned Hydaelyn does not mean he would not loathe the culprits for it and for undoing the plans they had to restore those sacrificed, and also for shattering their race and their world. Sure, it is a contest of wills, but his scorn for diluted life forms as he sees them does not mean he cannot disagree over the actions some of his own kind took or that he thinks those of his own race cannot err - after all, they were no hivemind. Yet what material difference does it make to them and where they find themselves? That isn't to say that I think it means our characters should just take it lying down - clearly not. It just moves the issue for me to an area where it boils down to irreconcilable differences on fundamental premises of morality between the two sides, rather than dealing with a pure villain like Zenos.

That said, I am sure, given how the story is being written, that some element will be thrown in to show how it was "necessary", i.e. some plotline that the Convocation members became corrupted, and/or altered their plans, rather than going down the more interesting route that both gods were ultimately mistakes. I'm also fairly confident that they'll have you be the departed member of the Convocation, who rallied others to her summoning. Perhaps to cease the sacrifice, perhaps for other reasons (Zodiark spiralling out of control, for example), though the method in question does make me think it would be more than just the sacrifice being made to Zodiark, or maybe the reasons behind it, but if no end seemed in sight, then mayhap it was that. Not the route I'd like them to take but it seems plausible and it would alter matters in terms of the logic behind it.

Regarding the effects her excision would have - the planet could certainly survive without her, although quite what those "Terminus" monstrosities truly are is unclear. Going from the NPC dialogue in Amaurot, the affair was described as a screeching cacophony beneath the earth, distorting living things and wresting from the ancients their creation magicks - this then ties in with Emet-Selch's voice during the dungeon, in describing how their worst impulses, their sins, were given life through the power of their creation magicks. They could not point to the source and even through Emet-Selch's recollection, it does not seem to have been determined. To me, this all is indicative of some manner of parasite, possibly even an otherworldly one, but nonetheless something within the planet which caused this suffering. I'd also leave open the possibility that in some places outwith Amaurot, they may have been less diligent in self-regulating their powers of creation, but by the account given, parasitic activity sounds likely.

Whatever their origin, in that event perhaps having such a "will in the star" could be beneficial, to ward off the possibility of such an event recurring. The other big question is how would life on it alter? Certainly, the natural environmental aether and things like forests and such can clearly exist without a planetary will. It's possible that the world would change somehow but to me it looks like all that aether is contained in the Primal itself, and its release would just mean an awful lot of aether to be harnessed. Unless they're somehow conducive to naturally balancing the world, to avoid calamities like that which befell Amaurot, or for some other reason (i.e. the fragmented life forms since the Sundering somehow depend on them to exist), their existence at the least appears to be negotiable. So I'll agree that we need more information to see what to make of all this, before concluding that their excision is 1) feasible and 2) desirable.

Lastly, I wonder whether the persistence of the alternative 8th Umbral Calamity timeline G'raha postulated as a potential scenario (implied by his own persistence after it is forestalled) may mean a possible way for the Ascians to summon Zodiark without rejoining the Shards in this timeline, were they able to exploit this. It'd enter very messy territory in terms of the logical implications of such a state of affairs, but it's a viable avenue if SE wanted to leave the other Shards untouched in our timeline but have Zodiark summoned.

For full disclosure, though, if this were a game where we got to pick sides, I'd side with the Ascians. Their reclamation narrative and alignment to darkness greatly appeal to me from an RP/fantasy perspective.

[ObsidianFire]

Emet-Selch goes out of his way in the MSQ cut-scenes to portray the Ascians and Zodiark in the best light as possible. Outside of the cut-scenes, he's a lot more forthcoming with some information to the WoL if you decided to talk with him.

One of most important bits of information he tells the WoL outside of a cut-scene is that the summoners of Zodiark (Convocation of Thirteen) were tempered by Zodiark.

Which in my mind puts the plan to restore the world by sacrificing more Ancients to Zoidark and the plant to free the Ancient souls sacrificed to Zodiark by sacrificing more future souls to Zodiark in a very different light. All primals need aether. All primals want aether. The goal of people who have been tempered is to keep their primal supplied with aether. And that is exactly what the Convocation of Thirteen's plan would do regardless of their reasons why they are sacrificing souls to Zodiark. We aren't even told if Zoidark can even gives the souls/aether he was summoned with back! So far, all primals we have fought only give back the aether they have absorbed when they are killed. Which suggests that if the Convocation of Thirteen really wanted those souls back (or at least free to be reborn most likely) they would have had to kill Zoidark, not provide him with even more aether down the line.

I can see non-tempered Ancients parsing that logic and realizing that the Convocation of Thirteen is essentially planning on sacrificing their progeny to Zodiark to hopefully get back the souls of the dead and deciding they did not like that plan. And so they came up with an entirely different operating system for a primal. One that while it did absorb aether when people died also automatically would give that aether up to be reborn again eventually. Throw in a genuine love of life and not defaulting to wanting people to die to get more aether and a way to weaken beings without killing them and you pretty much have Hydaelyn. I can easily imagine some surviving Ancients deciding that dying and then getting reborn/reincarnated afterwards was an acceptable alternitive to having to watch their kids sacrifice themselves to bring back people who had already agreed to die.

Compared to a lot of other FF worlds, the FFXIV world pretty much rolled a natural 20 when it came to setting up the deity who watches over their world.

[Berethos]

Which in my mind puts the plan to restore the world by sacrificing more Ancients to Zoidark and the plant to free the Ancient souls sacrificed to Zodiark by sacrificing more future souls to Zodiark in a very different light. All primals need aether. All primals want aether. The goal of people who have been tempered is to keep their primal supplied with aether.

That is the case with current primals...but isn't it suggested that this is a result of the relative lack of aether from the summoners of the shards/source when engaging in what turns out to be creation magic? The Ancients seem to have been capable of creating entities fully, with more powerful ones requiring more aether to complete...

But the constant need to feed on aether that we see in our primals seems to be a result of what is essentially an incomplete "concept" that is brought into creation. We don't have the innate aether needed to summon a creation the way they could (otherwise even their robes would be sucking aether from the land), and as such the creation (primal) is simply trying to complete the process using the aether it can find elsewhere...which is something the Ascians know and count on as part of their plans.

Zodiark and Hydaelyn also don't seem to be described as needing to continue to feed, but rather to need energy for specific purposes - summoning, fixing the world, etc.

So while it is entirely possible that Zodiark wouldn't return the souls in exchange for an equivalent amount of aether and simply enjoy the new meal, I'm not sure we can say that either work the same way as our primals, seeing as how the current use of the creation magics that are now known as primal summoning have some very specific shortcomings compared to the techniques employed by the Ancients.

[Lauront]

...yes, but then take it a step further, give her the ability (enervation) to sunder and shatter Zodiark, the world itself and all souls in it, and then shroud the act in secrecy, and it grows a little more dubious as to how much of a "20" it really is, seeing their people and world shattered. So unless there was a really compelling reason for it, the question of whether the benefit warranted the cost remains - and to the Ascians, the answer is decidedly in the negative.

[Theodric]

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

[Omury]

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

That is, of course, you ignore the MULTIPLE TIMES ANY OF THE ASCIANS COULD HAVE TOLD US!

[Sathona]

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

I sense much evil from this walking one.

[Slatersev]

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

There is something fiercely ironic about using Vayne's quote here because in 12 itself, Vayne and Cid would have never had a chance in hell of putting history in mans hands without the help of Venat. One of those very gods who didnt agree with the others and worked against them to help mortals.

Which sounds quite similar to Hydaelyn's actions giving rise to worlds and mortals who fight against the Ascians.

[Zohar_Lahar]

...yes, but then take it a step further, give her the ability (enervation) to sunder and shatter Zodiark, the world itself and all souls in it, and then shroud the act in secrecy, and it grows a little more dubious as to how much of a "20" it really is, seeing their people and world shattered. So unless there was a really compelling reason for it, the question of whether the benefit warranted the cost remains - and to the Ascians, the answer is decidedly in the negative.

The whole "Final Days" incident seems like a compelling reason to sunder the star, if it meant not having reality-warping beings at risk of causing an apocalypse from mass hysteria.

[Alleo]

...yes, but then take it a step further, give her the ability (enervation) to sunder and shatter Zodiark, the world itself and all souls in it, and then shroud the act in secrecy, and it grows a little more dubious as to how much of a "20" it really is, seeing their people and world shattered. So unless there was a really compelling reason for it, the question of whether the benefit warranted the cost remains - and to the Ascians, the answer is decidedly in the negative.

We just have way to less information for that. Maybe it was in the will of the ones that summoned her that wanted the shattering because they saw that how powerful their race is, its too dangerous? We just know the view of those that summoned Zodiark, those that were ready to sacrifice big amounts of their own race so that he can solve their problems. We also know that only one member (probably us) was against his summoning but at the end Hydaelyn had so many followers that she somehow was as strong as Zodiark (and he somehow lost one halo) and was able to defeat him. So even if Emet goes around and sees himself as the right one, they choose sacrifice as their way to end the conflict (but dont accept the sacrifice and kinda are living in the past just like Nidhogg did) while others saw that this was wrong, especially since they wanted to kill the new generation (which were still with complete souls!) just to get their old ones back..I doubt that those who summoned Hydaelyn did this with the same view and belief than those who summoned Zodiark.

Hydaelyn herself probably did not tell the whole truth (she only did lie about who came first, she was telling the truth about Zodiark threating life since he should get all the new souls as sacrifice) because she needed us and maybe was afraid that we would listen to the Ascians. We have people like Urianger that lied more than once to get to his end and yet he is no bad guy. Hydealyn lied to us once, otherwise her actions are good. Why should one action destroy the rest of it?

The Ascians and Emet in turn have done more bad than good to us and seemingly even went against the wishes of some of their own race. I feel bad for him but he was wrong and like the OP stated, alot of the conflict only was started thanks to them and seemingly their race was not even that great either since Zodiark only was summoned when their city was under attack..they seemingly still just discussed helping the rest of the cities when those were also under attack..so Alphinaud is quite right, there is not much difference between us.

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

What if she simply does not know their whole motives? She was summoned as the enemy of Zodiark and those that follow him. We dont know if she even knows why that was the case. Maybe she even got told the story wrongly. In the end she did not tell us the full truth but the Ascians themselves proved that they could not be allowed to live. I mean why is it bad to kill them off? These guys have for thousands of years tried to rejoin the shard, made one shard into the void and succeeded with a couple of rejoining too which killed billions of people and other life..but Hydealyn wanting to take them out is bad? No matter what happens to them, their plans (even worse now that they even want to sacrifice the source people too) are so bad that we can never allow them to happen, so why should she care..at the same time she never went to us and said: Kill those guys, only after new conflict arised with them did she try to tell us more. Otherwise she mostly left us to our own devise, told us to "feel, think, hear" for ourself" and used her all to defend us from certain death. And as others pointed out we see her view in "answers" and she does not force anyone to pray to her, heck most people dont even know she exists..You completely ignore all the good she had done and accuse her of being evil just because she once told us a different version of the story..while completely ignoring that we also only saw the view of the Ascians who claim to be tempered to Zodiark..and ignoring that we already have people from their race who were against them too..heck it was their own race that summoned Hydealyn.

Why does man need to kill her to have their own history? Our history only was ever possible thanks to her. Us not being rejoined and destroyed was only thanks to her and her WoL..its funny when man wants history without a god/primal but only lives thanks to that. And Hydealyn mostly even leaves us to ourselves. She only saves a small few like us or Kryle. In times of peace or rebuilt between the calamities she is not that active either. Heck barely anyone even knows that she exits..so without Ascians trying to stir things up, man already has the reign over their history.

Actually he knew the whole time we were of his race.


That is why he gave us so much leeway and sought to understand us. He already knew us.

And that is why he is dissappointed when ourselves rejoined 7 times cannot hold the light.

Yes he knows it from the beginning that we are at least from his race and at the end he even for a short time sees that we may have been even a close friend of his but does not want to believe that. So here we have another Ascian that is not outright telling us the truth. Not only that he knew about our soul but does not truly say it (just these small hints) but he was ready for us to become monsters if we dont win the test. Heck I wonder if he ever believed that we would be able to do it. He was angry that we destroyed his plan but seemingly got a new one, so I think he hoped that we would get all the light and then turn into the worst of the lightwardens..killing us with that and starting the rejoining again.