Lack of End Game Content

[linay]

Every non-ShB instance is only "endgame"...

And that's all I was saying. Hence why I said "indirectly" in my initial statement about it, though my initial responses to you were not even about that. It's simply that these contents are designed to be reused, even the optional non-MSQ contents.

[BlitzAceRush]

Another issue Zabuza, you keep saying you're trying to be silenced, most of us don't care you feel differently to us, sure some people on BOTH sides have been very dismissive of each other, however, you keep claiming those of us with a differing opinion are also trying to silence you. Of course people who are happy with the game won't want it to change, specially if the addition is something they literally have no interest in. But plenty of us wouldn't mind if you got more content, but we also understand that it WILL come at a cost to others and given the disparity in ratio to those who would do harder endgame content and those who wouldn't it's going to be a tough sell to SE to do it.

You keep trying to say it would be a no loss or no noticeable loss to casuals but the evidence again is against you, their at the limit of what they can produce currently without sacrificing something or slowing down the patch cycle both of which will effect those who enjoy 14 as it is a lot if either were to happen.
Can we have the missing genders? "Would slow the patch cycle" Can we have Mythic+ or other hard 4 man contend? "IF we had double the qualified battle designers and two of me..." So you're adding Eureka and Ultimate? "Yes, but you'll have to lose a dungeon ever other patch, sorry." These are all thing Yoshi has said or had to do, there is no evidence them giving you what you want wouldn't impact everyone else, theirs only to the contrary.

They are not going to abandon a winning formula, Yoshi will continue to try and squeeze in some new stuff as and where they can, like the harder floors to Deep Dungeon, BA and Eureka, Ultimate and so on.

Also in no point in this had I shut you down, I've explained I'd be OK with you getting what you want, explained why I however think it's doubtful beyond a few things here and there, showed you have more content now than before and pointed out that a lot of your points just don't ring true, but please continue telling me I'm trying to silence you.

Most of the people telling you to look elsewhere are being kind, if you're not happy their trying to share with you what might from their experiences, you're the one meeting everyone with swords, using the actions of a few to justify this "casuals ruined the game give me what I'm owed but I can be this hostile because many, many pages back some people were to me"

Yoshi and the dev teams stance is unlikely to change, this game is 6 years old, you have in fact gotten more harder content and if they can, they'll try to squeeze a little more in, that's it, threes little more to really add, they know some want it and have said as and where but it can't be a focus and it's been 6 years at this point you need to take the game for what it is or not, wanting more is fine but you're not really going to win anyone over who's happy with the "You owe me casual" attitude.

[linay]

There was a podcast I saw recently where some people said that they wouldn't mind if there was no Ultimate and instead Savage content lasts longer. Some wanted Midas difficulty (if not Gordias) and maybe more bosses.

[Zabuza]

Most of the people telling you to look elsewhere are being kind, if you're not happy their trying to share with you what might from their experiences, you're the one meeting everyone with swords, using the actions of a few to justify this "casuals ruined the game give me what I'm owed but I can be this hostile because many, many pages back some people were to me".

I don't see those who are telling me to look elsewhere as being kind. I see it as them saying there is no issue to be discussed so don't talk about this issue, but instead leave. I've seen a ton of sentences such as that, which basically are revealing people don't want me to talk about the issue. Suggesting that I leave the game when I've already been frequently unsubbing is no kindness. Also people telling me I need to do 100% of everything before I can ask for any endgame, is a way to try to get me to also stop discussing this topic since they know it would take me some time to clear the two Ultimates. People just don't want to address it really, but would rather I unsub or stop posting. If you want me to stop posting so badly, then stop responding to me then.

[SaberMaxwell]

Also people telling me I need to do 100% of everything before I can ask for any endgame, is a way to try to get me to also stop discussing this topic since they know it would take me some time to clear the two Ultimates.

Exactly, it would take time to do Ultimate. It's a challenging fight that takes a long time to accomplish. Isn't that what you want? You were complaining earlier about people (me) being able to clear the tier with 35 hours of work, well here's Ultimate that takes about 150 hours on average. It's a ton to chew into, and it's great fun as well. There's 3 months between Ultimate and the next tier's Savage, and a lot of people use that entire 3 months, not to mention that UCoB is still relevant two years later.

If your complaint is "there's not enough challenging endgame" and you're ignoring the zenith of that endgame, of course you're going to get raised eyebrows.

[Zabuza]

Exactly, it would take time to do Ultimate. It's a challenging fight that takes a long time to accomplish. Isn't that what you want? You were complaining earlier about people (me) being able to clear the tier with 35 hours of work, well here's Ultimate that takes about 150 hours on average. It's a ton to chew into, and it's great fun as well. There's 3 months between Ultimate and the next tier's Savage, and a lot of people use that entire 3 months, not to mention that UCoB is still relevant two years later.

If your complaint is "there's not enough challenging endgame" and you're ignoring the zenith of that endgame, of course you're going to get raised eyebrows.

I mean, it's literally one fight per tier. Not much in actual content but difficulty, for sure. It just feels more like Ultimate is being suggested as a way of 'how can we get him to stop posting.' Hoping I'll get into it and then forget this thread exists...Maybe you're actually trying to help me. Either way, I don't feel that people should need to clear both Ultimates before they can comment on endgame, because then only 1% of people are allowed to say anything about endgame? These standards don't apply to anything else in the game. We don't ask people to collect every mount before they suggest an idea for another type of mount they think would be cool... I also guarantee you a lot of people feeling that there is a void of endgame and unsubbing are not people who have cleared Ultimate.

[Nariel]

I mean, it's literally one fight per tier. Not much in actual content but difficulty, for sure. It just feels more like Ultimate is being suggested as a way of 'how can we get him to stop posting.' Hoping I'll get into it and then forget this thread exists...Maybe you're actually trying to help me. Either way, I don't feel that people should need to clear both Ultimates before they can comment on endgame, because then only 1% of people are allowed to say anything about endgame? These standards don't apply to anything else in the game. We don't ask people to collect every mount before they suggest an idea for another type of mount they think would be cool... I also guarantee you a lot of people feeling that there is a void of endgame and unsubbing are not people who have cleared Ultimate.

Yeah and even with their unsubbing the game still grow steadily, so they are not missed.

[Zabuza]

Yeah and even with their unsubbing the game still grow steadily, so they are not missed.

Gallery, I present Exhibit A in my evidence of hatred towards raiders.

[SaberMaxwell]

I mean, it's literally one fight per tier. Not much in actual content but difficulty, for sure.

It's one fight, yeah, but the difficulty gives it longevity. Progging it, like I said, can take upwards of months; assuming one raids an average of 30 hours a week, their average kill would be five weeks in (based on the average 150h measure). That's a huge amount of time to raid per week, as well, a lot don't raid 30 hours a week.

It just feels more like Ultimate is being suggested as a way of 'how can we get him to stop posting.' Hoping I'll get into it and then forget this thread exists...Maybe you're actually trying to help me.

I'm hoping that you get into it and enjoy the content so much you do forget this thread. The only caveat is that if you do get the taste for Ultimate, even Savage slows down to a crawl in comparison, so watch out for that :P

Either way, I don't feel that people should need to clear both Ultimates before they can comment on endgame, because then only 1% of people are allowed to say anything about endgame?

That's a fair criticism. For what it's worth, you are allowed to comment (I certainly can't and won't stop you); my stance from the beginning was "I wouldn't mind more, but I'm fine with what we have although I am biased because I do enjoy the content cycle of Extreme to Savage to Ultimate." Savage is a progression raid, Ultimate is not, so they can make Ultimate in a much more precise way both mechanically and with regards to stat checks, because it can be tuned for exact item levels rather than approximations by the developers.

These standards don't apply to anything else in the game. We don't ask people to collect every mount before they suggest an idea for another type of mount they think would be cool...

The problem here is, asking someone to do Ultimate isn't the same as asking them "to do everything." Nobody cares if you go back and complete The Soul of the Creator (Savage); nobody cares if you go complete The Second Coil of Bahamut Turn 4. Nobody's declaring you need a 100% raid portfolio across every expansion in order to have credentials. In the current content cycle, Ultimate is the zenith; it's the end. The omega to Savage's alpha. Both Ultimates remain relevant today because they can't be unsynched, and their rewards are likewise still very prestigious. That's a lot of staying power for this MMO especially, considering the content is over a year old now.

Most raiders I know consider Ultimate to be just as relevant endgame as current Savage.

I also guarantee you a lot of people feeling that there is a void of endgame and unsubbing are not people who have cleared Ultimate.

If enough are abandoning Savage to be statistically significant, I'm sure Square Enix will change their formula. I'm sure that's one of the reasons they came up with Ultimate in the first place as well; a nice compromise between people who liked Gordias difficulty and people who liked gear progression.

[Nariel]

Gallery, I present Exhibit A in my evidence of hatred towards raiders.

Its not that I hate them, I don't care and gladly accept any new hardcore content if it didn't cost me my part of fun. Its just not as much a big problem as you present it if at all.