5.0 Wind-Up Openers

[HyoMinPark]

If it had the percentage chance of Monk's Deep Meditation 2 + Bootshine (which is a 70% chance to proc a chakra stack) or BH (which guarantees at least two uses of FC), I could somewhat understand having those assumptions for procs, but not so much at 40%. At most, it means that you miss out on 2-3 procs rather than 6-8 procs. And these openers are all used under the assumption that everyone will be using similar openers that raid buffs end at the same time, so the way it lines up is different from current BRD guides and openers listed elsewhere (or it might be really similar).

I've edited so that PP is put before Apex Arrow. Now there's at least 16-20 seconds between playing Minuet and using PP with an EA in between. Pretty sure it's likely you're get two stacks within that time period.

I may meet my posting limit soon, so if I do not reply further, that is why (forums are limited to 20 posts within a roiling 24 hours and I’ve already been active this morning in other threads).


Even if its 2~3 in reality versus the potential 6~8, you shouldn’t ever act under the assumption you’ll get less procs instead of more. With proc based jobs, I think it’s best to always be prepared for the event that you do get a proc rather than say to yourself “I won’t get a proc”.

That period of songlessness would also likely mean that EA is up at some point. EA is meant to be used on cooldown in most instances, and using it guarantees a Repertoire. You would not want to sit on it during a songless period and risk losing uses of it throughout an encounter.

All that talk about procs being said, regarding your insertion of PP into the openers: while you should always have the mindset of getting and reacting to these procs, you also cannot solidify a spot in openers for RNG or proc-based skills outside of where they are guaranteed (e.g., by Barrage’s Straight Shot Ready trait, DNC procs guaranteed by Flourish, RDM procs guaranteed by Acceleration, etc.). Placing PP there may or may not even be beneficial depending on what kind of PP it is (1-stack, 2-stack, or 3-stack). There’s a reason the standard BRD opener does not include any hard spots for PP, but instead states “Use PP during this time at 3-stacks if/when it procs”. Same for Burst Shots procing RA: if your Burst Shots proc an RA during the opener, you replace it with RA with no question.

I had similar complaints regarding procs with your DNC openers simply because you’re opting for a 1-2 combo before starting Technical, but that risks you getting Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall procs, and you would have to subsequently delay your Flourish to not overwrite those procs, which potentially pushes the Flourished procs out of your TF window depending on your Saber Dance rates AND it means that all future Flourishes will be delayed by that 1 or 2 GCDs from lucky procs.



As for your BRD opener compared to the standard, they are vastly different. The same is for DNC. I guess I’m also just wondering why try to make new openers when others have already figured out the most optimal/standard openers that take into account raid buff alignment already.

[Oxdarock]

Even if its 2~3 in reality versus the potential 6~8, you shouldn’t ever act under the assumption you’ll get less procs instead of more. With proc based jobs, I think it’s best to always be prepared for the event that you do get a proc rather than say to yourself “I won’t get a proc”.

That period of songlessness would also likely mean that EA is up at some point. EA is meant to be used on cooldown in most instances, and using it guarantees a Repertoire. You would not want to sit on it during a songless period and risk losing uses of it throughout an encounter.

All that talk about procs being said, regarding your insertion of PP into the openers: while you should always have the mindset of getting and reacting to these procs, you also cannot solidify a spot in openers for RNG or proc-based skills outside of where they are guaranteed (e.g., by Barrage’s Straight Shot Ready trait, DNC procs guaranteed by Flourish, RDM procs guaranteed by Acceleration, etc.). Placing PP there may or may not even be beneficial depending on what kind of PP it is (1-stack, 2-stack, or 3-stack). There’s a reason the standard BRD opener does not include any hard spots for PP, but instead states “Use PP during this time at 3-stacks if/when it procs”. Same for Burst Shots procing RA: if your Burst Shots proc an RA during the opener, you replace it with RA with no question.

I had similar complaints regarding procs with your DNC openers simply because you’re opting for a 1-2 combo before starting Technical, but that risks you getting Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall procs, and you would have to subsequently delay your Flourish to not overwrite those procs, which potentially pushes the Flourished procs out of your TF window depending on your Saber Dance rates AND it means that all future Flourishes will be delayed by that 1 or 2 GCDs from lucky procs.


As for your BRD opener compared to the standard, they are vastly different. The same is for DNC. I guess I’m also just wondering why try to make new openers when others have already figured out the most optimal/standard openers that take into account raid buff alignment already.

I can see that. As much as I tried to minimize losing out on resources, several of the longer openers do sacrifice something in order to get bigger moves within buff windows. It comes down to the dps loss versus the gain in that sense.

You're guaranteed two EA in each song window with it's CD and with where it is in the openers I listed, even if it does come off CD during a song-less period, it wouldn't be more than 1 or 2 GCDs and it's the only time it would happen in an encounter. You'd have to collectively hold EA by seven GCDs in order to waste a usage over a fight.

I do see what you mean about having exact spots for PP given it's nature. I tried to mention that you can switch it's placement with Sidewinder if RNG is good, but so long as you don't have a NIN or RDM, you can really pop them anywhere you want (which I should also add in there).

I can see the concern with the Cascade/Fountain fall combo and the second move gaining a Flourishing proc, but that just means you have to delay Flourish by 1 GCD. Unlike other duration buffs, it only takes about 8-10 seconds to use all of the Flourishing GCDs back to back, so it being pushed back by 1 GCD shouldn't be that bad. This is all assuming that the fight has 100% uptime, since there are several fights where you have to delay buffs during add phases (unless they're extremely tanky or you know you're going to have the buff up gain by the time the boss becomes targetable again) or there are moments of downtime (i.e. Maelstrom in E3S).

Ultimately, the reason for all of this work is an obsession I have with strengthening my TK rotation. Much as I'd like to just do the strongest monk opener, it's pointless if doing so mess up raid buff alignment and everyone else's damage.

[Kitfox]

Your Machinist opener is insanely inefficient. Nobody should use it, ever. You don't even seem to know how the abilities work because you're wasting massive amounts of potency by not using enough Heat Blasts, not enough Gauss Rounds / Ricochets and delaying Drill for absolutely no reason.

If you want to know about actual Machinist openers, I just released an optimization write-up on them on the Balance Discord and it's been added to our guide:

The Balance 5.X Machinist Guide

Machinist is not the only job you got wrong. All of your openers are off down to the the logic behind your raid buff alignment. I urge you to join our discord and talk to other theorycrafters if you want to improve your work because currently it's a far cry from anything optimized.

[Oxdarock]

Your Machinist opener is insanely inefficient. Nobody should use it, ever. You don't even seem to know how the abilities work because you're wasting massive amounts of potency by not using enough Heat Blasts, not enough Gauss Rounds / Ricochets and delaying Drill for absolutely no reason.

If you want to know about actual Machinist openers, I just released an optimization write-up on them on the Balance Discord and it's been added to our guide:

The Balance 5.X Machinist Guide

Machinist is not the only job you got wrong. All of your openers are off down to the the logic behind your raid buff alignment. I urge you to join our discord and talk to other theorycrafters if you want to improve your work because currently it's a far cry from anything optimized.

So, before we even get to the Machinest mechanics, why exactly is my buff alignment logic off? As I stated way in the beginning, may classes have a lot of build-up to their openers, MCH included (the battery gauge).

That said, I do realize that I might have 1 or 2 less heat blasts than I should and there are places where I should have put in a Gauss round and Ricochet rather than where I did, so I'll need to re-edit it later. Thank you for the feedback.

[HyoMinPark]

So, before we even get to the Machinest mechanics, why exactly is my buff alignment logic off? As I stated way in the beginning, may classes have a lot of build-up to their openers, MCH included (the battery gauge).

I’m guessing what Kitfox is getting at is that you don’t do all this build up first, and then pop raid buffs. If you delayed raid buffs and pots for when jobs finally had all their stuff built up, it would get a little ridiculous. I believe most are centered around how quick Trick Attack can be put up on the boss, along with things optimal for the specific job (e.g., DRG uses Dragon Sight, Litany, and a pot before it applies Chaos Thrust, which is the first combo it performs because you always want to get DoTs up and ticking on a boss ASAP; DNC and BRD both pre-pull potion because it catches all of their burst that way, and their burst ends with the conclusion of TF and RS respectfully, which pre-pull pots catch).

However, I’m not a theorycrafter, so if I am incorrect, I will allow Kitfox to correct me.

[Kitfox]

many classes have a lot of build-up to their openers, MCH included (the battery gauge)

All classes have much less wind-up than you think. Almost every job begins their burst within 2-5 GCDs, not after 25-30s. Raid buffs are started immediately on pull with the longest ones and the shortest ones like Trick Attack coming out roughly around 10s to match them. Delaying causes massive dps losses for all classes because you're delaying your biggest hits for no reason. There's no 10-15s raid buff delay, you start them at 0s. You can see the most updated timings for all buffs here.

You would know this if you actually played the classes. You shouldn't try to theorycraft openers unless you have a deep understanding of how the classes work and have considerable experience playing them. Almost all theorycrafters focus on a single class because it takes that much effort and time to properly research things for optimal rotations and openers. Trying to jump into every single class without even having them leveled to cap is a hopeless endeavor.

[Oxdarock]

All classes have much less wind-up than you think. Almost every job begins their burst within 2-5 GCDs, not after 25-30s. Raid buffs are started immediately on pull with the longest ones and the shortest ones like Trick Attack coming out roughly around 10s to match them. Delaying causes massive dps losses for all classes because you're delaying your biggest hits for no reason. There's no 10-15s raid buff delay, you start them at 0s. You can see the most updated timings for all buffs here.

Again, why is it required that raid buffs go out as early as possible? The way I have it mapped out it the beginning, TA still comes out while most raid buffs are up, with Embolden being the exception due to how it works.

Using MCH as an example, if TA comes out at 10 secs and it takes at least 15 seconds to build up enough battery gauge, and it takes 5 seconds for the Automaton to start attacking, how are you getting Pile Bunker off within the TA window?

[HyoMinPark]

You're guaranteed two EA in each song window with it's CD and with where it is in the openers I listed, even if it does come off CD during a song-less period, it wouldn't be more than 1 or 2 GCDs and it's the only time it would happen in an encounter. You'd have to collectively hold EA by seven GCDs in order to waste a usage over a fight.

I still disagree with the idea of remaining songless for several seconds, and with sitting on EA at that time. I don’t think it’s optimal play for the job, as I’ve explained regarding Repertoire, procs, and the Soul Gauge.

I do see what you mean about having exact spots for PP given it's nature. I tried to mention that you can switch it's placement with Sidewinder if RNG is good, but so long as you don't have a NIN or RDM, you can really pop them anywhere you want (which I should also add in there).

Sidewinder should more or less be used within raid buffs of any kind—the easiest to align it with is TA simply because they share a cooldown duration, which I believe is the default that the standard opener uses. I know that this was the case in SB, and that BRDs have always advocated to fit Sidewinder into TA for that extra boost on it.

PP is an oGCD, so it’s usage is relatively free in terms of where you can place it. Just make sure you don’t clip your next GCD while using it. It’s very basic: most of the time, you use it at 3 stacks; when the song is about to end, blow your remaining stacks with in the last couple of seconds. The biggest caveat is the “if EA is coming up concurrent with the next DoT tick”, and even that is something I am learning as a BRD main since before PP was even a thing!

I can see the concern with the Cascade/Fountain fall combo and the second move gaining a Flourishing proc, but that just means you have to delay Flourish by 1 GCD. Unlike other duration buffs, it only takes about 8-10 seconds to use all of the Flourishing GCDs back to back, so it being pushed back by 1 GCD shouldn't be that bad. This is all assuming that the fight has 100% uptime, since there are several fights where you have to delay buffs during add phases (unless they're extremely tanky or you know you're going to have the buff up gain by the time the boss becomes targetable again) or there are moments of downtime (i.e. Maelstrom in E3S).

With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

With Saber being 600 potency versus the 350 potency of Fountainfall and the 300 potency of Reverse Cascade/Bloodshower (standard usage of Rising Windmill usually has it outside of Devilment, but inside TF—but it’s 250 potency for reference), you prioritize it first if you are going to risk overcapping on Esprit otherwise (and it’s used at 80 gauge regardless in most instances—I think the only reason you would delay it is if one of your Flourished procs is going to fall off otherwise). It’s not uncommon to have to Saber Dance before you fit in your SF into your burst, as it’s very easy to go from half Esprit to full within that 5-second time frame; and overcapping on Esprit means overcapping on resources. Which means lost damage. There are even instances where you have to delay SF for a Saber Dance.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

Keep in mind that some fights don’t have downtime like E3S does (E2S, for example), so your delayed Flourish—which can be from 1 GCD to 2 GCDs if you get procs off of both Cascade and Fountain in your proposed openers—will persist throughout the encounter due to having no opportunity to try and “fix” it. I don’t think the natural Drift of our dances is enough to rectify this issue fully.

If you are forced to delay it again further down in your rotation due to lucky procs, this hurts you even more. You never delay TF to try and realign Flourish, as that hurts buff alignment; which, in turn, hurts the raid. So you have to consistently deal with it being misaligned by those 1 or 2 GCDs. At most, I think that you can delay TF if there are mechanics happening that might prevent multiple party members from receiving the buff; but these are situations where you work with your group so that you collectively hold buffs for a few seconds—and no more than that, from my understanding of it all. And this is in fights with 100% uptime and no downtime/phase transitions/bosses jumping and flailing about doing stuff.

Ultimately, the reason for all of this work is an obsession I have with strengthening my TK rotation. Much as I'd like to just do the strongest monk opener, it's pointless if doing so mess up raid buff alignment and everyone else's damage.

I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.



I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

[Oxdarock]

With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.

I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

I still think that having to delay Flourish for 1 or 2 GCDs (assuming you also have a Saber dance that needs to be used) isn't that bad since it doesn't take more than 8 seconds to use all of the Flourish moves.

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch!

[HyoMinPark]

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

This is incorrect: Technical takes 7 seconds and Standard takes 5 seconds. Technical and Standard are both on the GCD (they are not oGCDs), but when you use them, they lower your base GCD to a 1.5s GCD. Meaning you have 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Standard (for a total of 5s) and 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Technical (for a total of 7s). The Step and the Finish are both bound by the 1.5s GCD change, so the entire process of a Standard Step and a Technical Step are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

No offense, but you don’t even have DNC unlocked. Why are you attempting to theorycraft on it?

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch!

I guess I’m coming from the point of view that theorycrafters have already figured out the most mathematically viable and most mathematically optimal options for openers and rotations. And, again, I also think that you need a deeper understanding of things before you begin to theorycraft. The mistakes I have pointed out just with 3 of the jobs are fairly basic things that all theorycrafters should know. There may be more that I missed or didn’t comment on. So I really think you should take Kitfox’s offer to join The Balance and probe the minds of the theorycrafters in there before further number crunching and guide writing is done.

And yeah, I did state that a lot of this is touchy-feely, so I appreciate the feedback!

I think this is the biggest flaw: theorycrafting isn’t done around feeling; it’s done around math and numbers. Optimization is all about what is mathematically optimal to do, not what “feels good” to do or what a particular player wants to do.