Thread: 5.0 Wind-Up Openers

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

So, before we even get to the Machinest mechanics, why exactly is my buff alignment logic off? As I stated way in the beginning, may classes have a lot of build-up to their openers, MCH included (the battery gauge).

I’m guessing what Kitfox is getting at is that you don’t do all this build up first, and then pop raid buffs. If you delayed raid buffs and pots for when jobs finally had all their stuff built up, it would get a little ridiculous. I believe most are centered around how quick Trick Attack can be put up on the boss, along with things optimal for the specific job (e.g., DRG uses Dragon Sight, Litany, and a pot before it applies Chaos Thrust, which is the first combo it performs because you always want to get DoTs up and ticking on a boss ASAP; DNC and BRD both pre-pull potion because it catches all of their burst that way, and their burst ends with the conclusion of TF and RS respectfully, which pre-pull pots catch).

However, I’m not a theorycrafter, so if I am incorrect, I will allow Kitfox to correct me.

Why are you potting so late in your RDM openers? Why are you telling people to hold Embolden so late for their melee combo when it's primary use is as a party buff? Why are you using Enchanted Reprise at all in the second opener when it's primary use is for movement? The usage of Reprise there pushes Scorch outside of the personal buff Manafication has. These Red Mage openers are horribly inefficient, did you do any math at all to come to these conclusions?

[Disclaimer: As of writing this, I’ve only managed to level one class to 80 and have therefore been unable to personally test all of these openers, nor have I been able to find anyone to help test them due to a Catch-22 situation (most people I ask want data before they try them, but I need people to try them to get data. Or they list all sorts of reasons why they won’t work and no suggestions on how they could work). As the amount of sks and sps each player/class has varies, I’ve used a 2.42 recast time as a base. Even the slowest speeds of 2.44 should also be able to work well with every opener. Finally, I’d like to stress that it’s not required to follow these openers. Feel free to use whatever works best for you.]

Oh, it's based completely on feelycraft and you don't have any experience with the vast majority of jobs.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.

I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

I still think that having to delay Flourish for 1 or 2 GCDs (assuming you also have a Saber dance that needs to be used) isn't that bad since it doesn't take more than 8 seconds to use all of the Flourish moves.

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch!

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

many classes have a lot of build-up to their openers, MCH included (the battery gauge)

All classes have much less wind-up than you think. Almost every job begins their burst within 2-5 GCDs, not after 25-30s. Raid buffs are started immediately on pull with the longest ones and the shortest ones like Trick Attack coming out roughly around 10s to match them. Delaying causes massive dps losses for all classes because you're delaying your biggest hits for no reason. There's no 10-15s raid buff delay, you start them at 0s. You can see the most updated timings for all buffs here.

You would know this if you actually played the classes. You shouldn't try to theorycraft openers unless you have a deep understanding of how the classes work and have considerable experience playing them. Almost all theorycrafters focus on a single class because it takes that much effort and time to properly research things for optimal rotations and openers. Trying to jump into every single class without even having them leveled to cap is a hopeless endeavor.

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

This is incorrect: Technical takes 7 seconds and Standard takes 5 seconds. Technical and Standard are both on the GCD (they are not oGCDs), but when you use them, they lower your base GCD to a 1.5s GCD. Meaning you have 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Standard (for a total of 5s) and 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Technical (for a total of 7s). The Step and the Finish are both bound by the 1.5s GCD change, so the entire process of a Standard Step and a Technical Step are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

No offense, but you don’t even have DNC unlocked. Why are you attempting to theorycraft on it?

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch!

I guess I’m coming from the point of view that theorycrafters have already figured out the most mathematically viable and most mathematically optimal options for openers and rotations. And, again, I also think that you need a deeper understanding of things before you begin to theorycraft. The mistakes I have pointed out just with 3 of the jobs are fairly basic things that all theorycrafters should know. There may be more that I missed or didn’t comment on. So I really think you should take Kitfox’s offer to join The Balance and probe the minds of the theorycrafters in there before further number crunching and guide writing is done.

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

And yeah, I did state that a lot of this is touchy-feely, so I appreciate the feedback!

I think this is the biggest flaw: theorycrafting isn’t done around feeling; it’s done around math and numbers. Optimization is all about what is mathematically optimal to do, not what “feels good” to do or what a particular player wants to do.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

From what I know, he actually did consult some of our monks, he was given feedback and numbers, even simulated dps differences for the rotations and reasons why they were inferior, but all of that was readily ignored and he continued to call their guide "perfectly viable."

Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Again, why is it required that raid buffs go out as early as possible? The way I have it mapped out it the beginning, TA still comes out while most raid buffs are up, with Embolden being the exception due to how it works.

Using MCH as an example, if TA comes out at 10 secs and it takes at least 15 seconds to build up enough battery gauge, and it takes 5 seconds for the Automaton to start attacking, how are you getting Pile Bunker off within the TA window?

You don't get a Pile Bunker in the first Trick Attack, you get it in the second one. This is why delaying raid buffs is bad, by the time you get one delayed use with your schedule, more optimal timings get a second use much faster while also doing much higher personal dps.