Concerning BLM Buffs/Quality of Life (yes, you read that right)

[Kabooa]

Math example very simplified but still proves the point; two scenarios.

Except what's stopping you from bringing -another- 10k job that buffs by 5%?

Why not -only- bring the 10k jobs that bring a 5% buff?

See the problem?

Hey, look, the Summer's only 1% behind the Black Mage! Great Balance! Oh, wait...why use a Black mage when you can bring the Summoner who also has an emergency raise in addition to their nearly equivalent RDPS?

Why use a Samurai when the Monk's nearly equivalent RDPS also brings along Mantra?

If the Black Mage is 10.5k in your example and another job buffs it by 400, then it's going to buff another 10k job by about 380. That other job is going to in turn buff you back by 380.

20,760 vs 20,900.

Oh but wait, that other job brings Raise. Or Healing Up. Or All Damage Reduction.

If you think any of those is outclassed by 140 dps you need to rethink your baselines.

[Lina_Slayer]

Except what's stopping you from bringing -another- 10k job that buffs by 5%?

Why not -only- bring the 10k jobs that bring a 5% buff?

See the problem?

This is why DNC is a step in the right direction (but then it unfortunately came undertuned lol), more single target buffs are good for the game, or else we risk a repeat of SB's "stack 4 jobs that can give 5,10,2 or anything raid-wide every X seconds, while we make whellchair memes with the "selfish" jobs"

[Llugen]

Thing is it isn't outclassed in its field, it's the highest rdps caster by a long long way. It's meta right now. Asking for buffs to a meta class is silly ..... Now we need a nerf but BLM damn well doesn't need a buff.

The point of this thread, if you read the OP carefully, is preemptive in nature. Should they decide to buff SAM/SMN in a similar fashion that they decided to buff MNK (in other words, with utter disregard to the implications of their brazen decisions), BLM is going to suffer significantly. If the other classes are getting adjusted (which they are) then BLM needs to be adjusted as well, otherwise it will be obsolete.

This is spelled out pretty well in Kabooa's most recent post.

Also, I have no problem with Between the Lines being a different button than Ley Lines, this job already has so few buttons. I'm really not sure why that keeps coming up. Transpose and Umbral Soul need to be two separate buttons as there are niche times you want to transpose into Fire and Firestarter, furthermore, how would you be able to enter Ice from Astral during downtime..?

I don't remember who said it but the idea behind the 30 second Thunder III is with having the Thundercloud proc have no timer (just like Ruin IV) in mind. Not sure if that wasn't clear. Alternatively I'd like to see Thundercloud either be additive to 60 seconds rather than refresh to 24, or add the remaining potency of the previous DoT to the initial potency of the new Thundercloud, but I've harped about those changes enough already I think.

Also as an aside, they stated in the recent Live Letter that SAM is tuned to benefit from raid buffs, which obviously BLM benefits from buffs as well, however as it stands now there are zero magic damage only raid buffs and at least two physical damage only raid buffs, not to mention that SAM loses no uptime from movement (save for having to leave the boss which is pretty high priority to avoid for strats) and also has great tools to handle this. Do consider these factors in your assessment if you think that SAM should be doing stronger damage than BLM in perfect conditions.

[Vendalwind]

Except what's stopping you from bringing -another- 10k job that buffs by 5%?

Why not -only- bring the 10k jobs that bring a 5% buff?

See the problem?

Hey, look, the Summer's only 1% behind the Black Mage! Great Balance! Oh, wait...why use a Black mage when you can bring the Summoner who also has an emergency raise in addition to their nearly equivalent RDPS?

Why use a Samurai when the Monk's nearly equivalent RDPS also brings along Mantra?

If the Black Mage is 10.5k in your example and another job buffs it by 400, then it's going to buff another 10k job by about 380. That other job is going to in turn buff you back by 380.

20,760 vs 20,900.

Oh but wait, that other job brings Raise. Or Healing Up. Or All Damage Reduction.

If you think any of those is outclassed by 140 dps you need to rethink your baselines.

The math was simplified to make the idea as simple and clear as possible. If you are willing to do the math for a full party and see the total effects you will see that it works effectively how I explained in an 8 man.

ALSO note that I mention dmg utility classes. This would not include utility thats brought for reasons exterior to damage. That i thought i made pretty dang clear by literally saying damage utility rDPS based classes time and time again.

The reality is even more stark with buffs being around 1.6% and pure dps classes sitting at ~15% higher baseline dmg. The best group right now is undeniably BLM, MNK, DRG, BRD/MCH (because of the forced 1% increase to compose with all three roles in mind)
If that forced 1% didnt exist the best group would be 4 MNKs. and not because of his rDPS component (which is valuable) but because of his current pDPS component being so high as well.

I used two people to explain what was happening and made the gap much much smaller than it is to simplify things. The reality is BLM is at 2-3k personal dps ahead of NIN or DNC Resultant still 1-1.5k above them in rDPS. and the contribution from trick is less than 5% i simplified the buff as well to show a theoretical unreal scenario where my statements still held true. the 5% came from me condensing the idea of having 4 rDPS classes together and the actual party gains from each. NIN is if perfectly played at maximum about 1/6th of 10% = 1.6%.

Thats the theoretical number.

In reality and practice tho the best clear group with a nin in it for titan had NIN rDPS at ~1.2k/79.7k = ~1.5% which was a 91 percentile NIN log
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/X9KmN...pe=damage-done

at 90th percentile BLM dps is literally 3.4k above NIN in titan. Thats utterly ridiculous. BLM is literally 29% higher. 29 freaking percent. There is no feasible way in the world that NINs cumulative 1.6 theoretical% buff could ever account for that difference even with 7 dps in mind (7*1.6=11.6) in mind.

My big number 5% was already done with 4 players in mind condensed into one, and even when the number is that high the difference is negligible.

Im not in the mood to do all the math again. I have actually done it before to check myself. But if you really want me to I will sit down and do it again sometime. Looking at the most optimal combinations in the current game purely mathmatically, and then also calculating theoretical buff composed groups with rDPS scores higher than regular.

The statement holds true.
The game will give more classes slots if rDPS classes can out rDPS selfish dps classes.
If selfish dps classes have higher rDPS as well, then a very distinct and absolute pure dps meta is the reality.

EDIT: (the math here is bad. its not this simple, but it still sufficiently makes my point)

[Vendalwind]

F--- it I did it again anyways...
Cause thats the kinda weirdo I am.

based on current savage raids I place my theoretical hoped for setup with these numbers. This does not directly account for small utilities such as shield samba, ease of play, or the kinda dumb ranged tax. This is what I'd like the game variance to be closer to to promote healthy play between each class. These numbers would be near unattainable except for with perfect play on everyone's part. But they should line up kinda like this to promote the most balance.

entirely personal DPS classes
-BLM, MCH, and SAM at 14k dps Abbreviated PURE
raid DPS classes with varied buff strengths placed at ~13.1K with a variance buff of 1.5% (higher than it currently is now for everyone but DNC)
-NIN, MNK, DRG, DNC, BRD abbreviated RAID
Utility DPS classes
12.5k and a .5% contribution, intentionally lower with raise in mind
-SMN, RDM. abbreviated UTIL

Other classes contribution 2 TANK 7k dps per
2 HEALER 6k dps per for a total of 26k exterior dps.

Scenarios analyzed. Optimal play in mind
4 PURE 14x4 +26k = 82K Strong but less classes fit this category, no reliance on anyone but oneself. thus its second to:

4RAID 13.1k + .97k (1.5% of 39.4 + 26) per = 14.07 *4 + 26 total = 82.28 Stronger since 5 classes hit this catergory, inspires slightly more varied class play by a marginal amount. harder to obtain maximum value due to interplay and aligning difficulties. cause each person relies on everybody else for the full amount.

2PURE 28k total
2RAID 13.1 + (1.5% of 28+26.2+26)~1.203k = 14.3kper = 28.6k total
Cumulative Total: 82.6k Strongest. Easier to obtain number (by a small margin) than the 82.28 of full RAID type

2PURE 28K
1RAID 13.1k +1K from group (1.5% of 28+12.5+26) (equivalence to PURE, but if one PURE switched to RAID total dmg would be marginally less)
1UTIL 12.5k + ~.35k from group (1.5% of 28+ 13.1k+26)
Cumulative Total: 80.85k with raise ability Loss of 1-1.5k to bring raise Utility. Difficulty equivalent to 2RAID 2 PURE group to maximize.

To me these are the theoretical gaps that would best balance the game. making every party desire at least 1 PURE and at least 1 RAID to perform better, but with the perfect group being a 2 RAID + 2 PURE composition. Since there are fewer PURE classes PURE is higher value. BUT RAID is slightly better total rDPS when accompanying pure.
Obviously these numbers would have to be adjusted for each content level, which is part of why balancing is so hard, BUT the point being note that the biggest gap in pDPS is from PURE to UTIL and its only 1.5k (instead of the near 2k amount it is right now) and the biggest DPS gap is RAID to UTIL being about the same 1.5k. Also note the .9K difference between PURE and RAID in terms of pDPS, this compared to the literall as much as 3.5k it is right now at max play on titan savage.

In this Scenario RAID has the biggest potential. BUT PURE is still the most desired class, as optimal groups will always desire 2 of them. So even in this situation the 3 PURE type classes are still more desirable than the 5 RAID type classes. Only type that takes a hit does so only when looking at speed runs because a 1k hit is now much more minimal than how the game currently punishes SMN and RDM.

BLM additionally will ALWAYS be the highest single value class EVEN IN THIS SCENARIO because guess what? its the only Caster PURE thus every single group should have one.

If you do the math with PURE even the slightest bit stronger immediately the 6 RAID types lose their value immensely as the best theoretical group would be a 4 PURE group. This is precisely why MNK, DRG, BLM are the meta right now. because they fit this scenario, while everyone else (SAM included) is too marginalized dps wise to be worth it. and the 4th slot just goes to a whoever.

[Makrar]

at 90th percentile BLM dps is literally 3.4k above NIN in titan. Thats utterly ridiculous. BLM is literally 29% higher. 29 freaking percent. There is no feasible way in the world that NINs cumulative 1.6 theoretical% buff could ever account for that difference even with 7 dps in mind (7*1.6=11.6) in mind.
.

Its more like BLM has 1300 rdps over Ninja or 10% more at 90% titan savage, no where near 29%

I believe 10% is too much and Ninja needs a buff, however fake and/or misleading maths like this is not helping the conversation in any shape or form.

Numbers dont need to be made up, exaggerated or taken out of context in order to make a point

[Shurrikhan]

I think he means in regards to rDPS, not pDPS. An rDPS char should have higher rDPS then a pDPS character, otherwise, whats the point in bringing rDPS characters?

Let's be very, very clear here. Are we meaning rDPS as in solely indirect contribution, or total contribution? Of course an rDPS job should have more indirect contribution than a pDPS job, just as a pDPS job should have greater personal contribution for avoiding that indirect contribution. But, their total contribution should be the same.

I see no reason why classes which include indirect contribution should have to have greater total contribution than those that do not. You ought play that particular job because, though their total contribution is equal, you prefer their playstyle (including the coordination of their rDPS) over that of the jobs without indirect contribution. Simple as that.

Apart from that the equation should be simple: if you're a better player than average for your party, you will provide faintly more by avoiding jobs with indirect contribution, and if you're a worse player than average for your party, you will provide faintly more by taking a job with the greatest amount of indirect contribution for your given composition. When your skill is equal to that of your party, the two should be dead even.

[Vendalwind]

Its more like BLM has 1300 rdps over Ninja or 10% more at 90% titan savage, no where near 29%

I believe 10% is too much and Ninja needs a buff, however fake and/or misleading maths like this is not helping the conversation in any shape or form.

Numbers dont need to be made up, exaggerated or taken out of context in order to make a point

That was looking at personal dps, not raid dps. AND i did make a mistake. I was looking at 99th at the time and thought I was looking at 90th. I am sorry about that misinformation
For reference at 99th percentile BLM is 15.1k and NIN is 11.8k right now on fflogs. 29% was slightly exaggerated, the number is 27.9% but its not far from the 99th percentile truth.
Also at 99th the rDPS gap is ~2k
14.7BLM
12.66NIN
16.6% gap

This is all looking at high end tho where the differences are the most notable. I personally.... will probably never break 90th percentile even as a NIN if im being honest with myself.