Concerning BLM Buffs/Quality of Life (yes, you read that right)

[Burningskull]

I would like Transpose to become Umbral Soul when in Umbral Ice. That's the only QoL thing I could think of.

[Vendalwind]

So you want BLM to go back to being a 100% useless job that no one wants to bring to content ever like they were in 3.0?

No. I dont want that. I want it to remain strong. The rhetoric i laid down had jothing at all to do with its current strength. BLM being able to out pDPS a nin and every other class is very much a good thing. BlM being able to out rDPS other classes thats only utility is rDPS is a bad thing.

As i explained before. If BLM has more pdps than others it works synergystically with rDPS utility classes such that both perform at their absolute best. But in that moment the rDPS of the contributor should be higher. The RDPS component still is composed of effort from both players. Of both class types.

On the flip side if blm can out rdps every damage utility rdps class regardless of comp then those classes are useless. Better to just bring another BLM type instead.

At the end of this all tho im just saying BLM doesnt need a buff right now. Its strong. Let it be strong. And let the other guys get balanced out a bit better.

[Lina_Slayer]

If anything us (BLM) and MNK should get a small nerf, this arm's race Square is teasing by buffing the 4th DPS (SAM) is likely to be very harmful for the game balance as a whole, right now classes like MCH,SMN,SAM and BRD are all somewhat close in output, I know SMN needs a lot of QoL that will end up being a dps buff as well (just look at MNK), I've heard some SAM's wanting a couple of QoLs as well (again a small buff), MCH and BRD are balanced between themselves and DRG is not as OP as initially thought (a little above this pack tho), however MNK and BLM are right now in a league of their own, basically dominating every fight at every percentile, small potency nerfs that don't affect gameplay would be much smarter than trying to bring SMN,SAM and NIN to this godly level and then leave the 3 physical ranged (if the gap becomes too big not even that party-wide 1% will save those classes), RDM and maybe even DRG in a dire spot.

[SpeckledBurd]

Here’s some actual Quality of Life I’d suggest for Black Mages AOE rotation. At max level there isn’t an AOE equivalent to Fire 3 you can use to switch to astral fire phase, and with large enough packs of adds, it’s a gain to use Flare to switch which just feels lame. At the same level you get Enhanced Freeze, I’d propose making Fire 2 Grant Astral Fire 3 and Remove Umbral Ice so Black Mage can always get two proper flares off in AOE.

[Lunavi]

No. I dont want that. I want it to remain strong. The rhetoric i laid down had jothing at all to do with its current strength. BLM being able to out pDPS a nin and every other class is very much a good thing. BlM being able to out rDPS other classes thats only utility is rDPS is a bad thing.

As i explained before. If BLM has more pdps than others it works synergystically with rDPS utility classes such that both perform at their absolute best. But in that moment the rDPS of the contributor should be higher. The RDPS component still is composed of effort from both players. Of both class types.

On the flip side if blm can out rdps every damage utility rdps class regardless of comp then those classes are useless. Better to just bring another BLM type instead.

At the end of this all tho im just saying BLM doesnt need a buff right now. Its strong. Let it be strong. And let the other guys get balanced out a bit better.

The problem with this logic is that if BLM doesn't out RDPS other classes no one will want to bring them as selfish DPS are 100% dependent on their own performance to deal damage, which is hidden information before the run starts. This means that from a good player's perspective it is always better to, considering equal rDPS, to bring a class that is more support oriented as if that person plays poorly at least they can carry them up better. This is part of the reason why selfish jobs have to bring higher rDPS so that people will consider the risk of adding them to the party.

[Vendalwind]

snip

...incorrect. the p4oblem with your logic is ... its not logic its emotion based.
This is a team game.
Selfish dps have the most free mindset because they are in control of their damage output. Regardless of if you feel thats true or not.
RDPS classes rely on other classes, but can f themselves AND others if they screw up. They have far more weight on their shoulders because as a team works if one selfish screws up timing and misses a raid buff its 1/4 group loss. If the buffer screws up it 4/4 loss.

Your logic is circular.

Step by step.
"selfish DPS are 100% dependent on their own performance to deal damage"
So are rDPS 100% self reliant in their ability to augment the damage of others AND themselves. Difficulty in timing is a thing for some rdps classes.

"This means that from a good player's perspective it is always better to, considering equal rDPS,"
Mathmatically this is literally incorrect. Support characters have more fallability if balanced equally with a selfish dps inherant in their possessing more variables and more screw up potential. Your above quote is literally wrong. Because of this variability the damage cieling needs to be higher to even slightly validate the risk as the floor is also lower. And again as a team its a rise together fall together thing.

"if that person plays poorly at least they can carry them up better."
If an rdps plays poorly you literally bring everyone down. Neither statement proves anything other than the fact that all players have to work as a team.

"selfish jobs have to bring higher rDPS so that people will consider the risk of adding them to the party."

Haha
Hahahha
The idea that selfish jobs are higher risk.

Im tired of this. Stop being selfish and look at the team dynamic mathematically and logically. At first i wasnt trying to be rude. But its so obvious you are failing to think logically about this because you want your big #1 dps spot.

Im tired and done with this. Final attempt

If rdps classes perform worse even in a perfect scenario with a perfect team in terms of the total dps they bring to the table they are worthless compared to any selfish dps.

If a selfish dps brings slightly less capped potential dps it doesnt matter because the max potential rdps of the rdps class is still only reachable because of the selfish dps's contribution.

I.E. a monk will perform worse with a dancer and a nin in the group. Cause they literally cant maximize eachothers buffs.

Which is why a mnk wants to be paired with SAM or DRG because they get greater returns. (And why sam needs to be brought in line with the other two more)

Likewise a NIN will always want to be in a team with a BLM and others that utilize his burst well.

RDPS classes by their very nature bring pDPS slots with them when they are in a good spot balance wise.

PDPS classes close slots for other rdpss if they cant keep up.

[Vendalwind]

Math example very simplified but still proves the point; two scenarios:

pdps classes higher

BLM brings 10.5k dps.
rDPS class brings 10k dps buffs blm by 400.

Rdps total is 10.4 since he claims that portion of blm dmg. Blm is still 10.5 Total group damage is 10.9k

Blm brings 10.5k
Sam brings 10.45k his rdps is higher than rDPS potential.

No interaction required and total dps is higher at 20.95k conlusion. Dont bring an rdps class.

Alternative scenario. Rdps class higher potential.

RDPS class deals 10k personal. Buffs others by 5%
Rdps class with another equivalent rdps class deal 10k each. Total with buff 21k.

Rdps class pairs with pure dps class that deals 10.5k on its own
10k plus 10.5k plus .5125k as raid dmg.
The rdps potential has now become 10.5125k dps which is higher than the 10.5k the selfish class is capable of. BUT that higher dps is only possible because of the higher dps class enabling the rdps classes buffs to be better used.

Conclusion: meta would be to have rdps class with pure dps class.

Do you see how that works? Rdps potential needs to be higher than pure dps potential because then the rdps fosters team unity. If this isnt the case pure dps rules supreme and tosses rdps to the wind as wasteful diminished returns.

[Vendalwind]

Cant edit since im on phone. got my math slightly wrong should be .50125k with the 5% buff in mind. But regardless its still apparent the best result is through a combined team comp rather than just rdps.

[Akava]

BLM, MNK and DRG are overpowered at the moment. That or every other DPS job is significantly underpowered, take your pick. Either people are misunderstanding Vendalwind or they simply want to be overpowered.

The idea of balance is that every dps job has their place. Right now, MNK, DRG and BLM are the best choice in every situation. They bring the most damage, even when you include buffs. Right now, Dancer does about 14% less damage even when you include the damage they bring with both standard step, technical step and devilment. That's not even remotely acceptable.

And don't say that gap is because of how mobile physical range are or how its harder to keep up time on a caster or a melee. You don't lose 14% up time in any fight. If you do, your strat needs to be adjusted to not screw over your team.

Selfish DPS should never be providing more raid DPS than a utility job. They should however, crush it when it comes to personal DPS.

[GUkraine]

Good joke. I'm a BLM main alongside SMN and BLM is op. The last thing we need is any QOL that allows us do do our faceroll rotation easier and top the meters without any effort.