Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

[YojimboM]

I'm no expert but I can imagine the reason why tank gear isn't as important as dps gear for savage content is because bosses focus more on their mecanics and cause the group to react. Better gear for the majority of your party (the dps) means they can take a little more pain for their mistakes. An adequately geared tank will still survive a tank buster if they use their cooldowns well. It also means healers don't need to heal as much, keeping their mp up for when it's needed.

That isn't the reasoning. The reason that DPS get gear before tanks and healers is primarily because, as DPS, they stand to get the most statistical gain from higher stats. Statics that are organized will always want to get as much gain as quickly as possible, so raising the stats of their highest DPS first would be the priority, since higher DPS = higher gain from a flat stat increase. Higher stats on the DPS also has a higher impact on the speed of clear times, so that is less healing or mitigating that will need to be done in the long run, so you can view more DPS as less incoming damage as well.

Tanks and healers are already overequipped for their primary jobs (and have always been since after Midas), so they get geared last, since they already fulfill their role as they are and their DPS numbers don't stand to increase as much with higher stats since they're lower. Having more HP on DPS jobs is a bit of a red herring as long as they have enough to survive unavoidable damage, the amount of healing needed to be done will never change since there are purely finite amounts of damage in any content, and that amount of damage only decreases the faster the pull is over.

For people hanging onto Tenacity for some reason: There is no way to increase the impact Tenacity has like DPS-oriented stats can be, through the use of raid buffs or party synergy, etc. Tenacity is inherently an almost useless stat. Like Parry was in ARR and HW. Don't meld it. At best, you would be making a run slower than it needs to be and actually putting more stress on your healers since they need to deal with damage for longer.

[Nedkel]

For people hanging onto Tenacity for some reason: There is no way to increase the impact Tenacity has like DPS-oriented stats can be, through the use of raid buffs or party synergy, etc. Tenacity is inherently an almost useless stat. Like Parry was in ARR and HW. Don't meld it. At best, you would be making a run slower than it needs to be and actually putting more stress on your healers since they need to deal with damage for longer.

This is completely false and i have already pointed out why.

Between tenacity and D-hit melds there is 1.6 percentage point difference in the damage multiplier, tank damage makes up for 9-11% of the total raid damage. This number will at best decrease the time needed to finish duty by maybe 0.16%, and because it is so random and unpredictable you could as well just deal as much damage as tenacity tank, since 1.6% damage increase on the rng driven stat is likely not going to happen all the time.

So what you are basically saying is, killing boss 0-0.16% faster is going to make it easier on healers than 4.3-5% mitigation increase, which is absurd statement. It wont be even noticed by a parser.

If that healer is overhealing 50% of the time... then the saved heal isn't likely to be saved... because they are already healing you wayyyy too much. What makes you think they would then heal less?

Perhaps they should heal a bit less and the tank should cycle their damage reducing cool downs when they need to instead.

It seems the answer is that player skill is important during relevant content that you cannot over gear. Meaning having additional tenacity for minuscule gains in damage reduction is pointless. Because if they do not play properly in the first place, no sub stat in the world will save them.

The amount of heal may not be changed (prove needed), but the time in which a tank need a heal going to change.
Tank with tenacity will need to be healed less often than a tank without one, it wont be nothing that you will be able to notice as a healer since its below the 10% perception point where humans are able to notice the difference, but it will be there the same way the additional 1.6% of a total RNG stat is, but it couldnt be.

I say 4-5% additional mitigation is something worth having, than 1.6% of rng bonus damage which may or may not be working as intended.

-snip-

Also played GW2, and i cannot count how many dungeons and raids i failed in there because everyone was a glass cannon dying in one second. Without dedicated healer and one tank in gw2 raiding is a nightmare.

[YojimboM]

This is completely false and i have already pointed out why.

Between tenacity and D-hit melds there is 1.6 percentage point difference in the damage multiplier, tank damage makes up for 9-11% of the total raid damage. This number will at best decrease the time needed to finish duty by maybe 0.16%, and because it is so random and unpredictable you could as well just deal as much damage as tenacity tank, since 1.6% damage increase on the rng driven stat is likely not going to happen all the time.

So what you are basically saying is, killing boss 0-0.16% faster is going to make it easier on healers than 4.3-5% mitigation increase, which is absurd statement. It wont be even noticed by a parser.

I have no idea where you're coming up with those DH numbers from, and you're entirely excluding crit for some reason. Tank BIS this tier have approx. 1300 DH, which is a 3.8% bonus, and around 3500 crit, which is a 14% bonus. Remember that damage stats stack multiplicatively on top of that. (http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/crit/, http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/dh/)

If you brought tenacity to absolutely maximum levels possible right now (3582), the damage and mitigation bonus would still only be 9.7%, not even close to the combined crit/DH bonus. At more realistic levels (around 2000), you can expect around 5% both ways like you said, almost three times less effective than crit alone. (http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/ten/)

This isn't even beginning to go into other details, like the number of raid buffs that favor DH and crit (Battle Litany, Battle Voice, Chain Stratagem, etc). Overall, DH and crit are both much more effective than Tenacity. In short: everything you've said about the comparison in DPS increase is wrong.

Tenacity might be useful as a bleeding-edge prog stat currently, as I've heard of at least one E4S clear where a tank with 3000 tenacity saved a run with only 3k HP after mistiming a Shadow Wall, and even in that case it was due to a player mistake and not required. At absolute best, Tenacity is padding for progging where a tank might be expecting to mess something up. In any other case, using Tenacity is essentially preparing yourself for failure, because if it benefits you in any large amount it would ultimately be due to failed mechanics.

[Nedkel]

I have no idea where you're coming up with those DH numbers from, and you're entirely excluding crit for some reason. Tank BIS this tier have approx. 1300 DH, which is a 3.8% bonus, and around 3500 crit, which is a 14% bonus. Remember that damage stats stack multiplicatively on top of that. (http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/crit/, http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/dh/)

If you brought tenacity to absolutely maximum levels possible right now (3582), the damage and mitigation bonus would still only be 9.7%, not even close to the combined crit/DH bonus. At more realistic levels (around 2000), you can expect around 5% both ways like you said, almost three times less effective than crit alone. (http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/ten/)

This isn't even beginning to go into other details, like the number of raid buffs that favor DH and crit (Battle Litany, Battle Voice, Chain Stratagem, etc). Overall, DH and crit are both much more effective than Tenacity. In short: everything you've said about the comparison in DPS increase is wrong.

Tenacity might be useful as a bleeding-edge prog stat currently, as I've heard of at least one E4S clear where a tank with 3000 tenacity saved a run with only 3k HP after mistiming a Shadow Wall, and even in that case it was due to a player mistake and not required. At absolute best, Tenacity is padding for progging where a tank might be expecting to mess something up. In any other case, using Tenacity is essentially preparing yourself for failure, because if it benefits you in any large amount it would ultimately be due to failed mechanics.

I am not advocating for making maximum tenacity and take the maximum possible tenacity from equipment, because for most of the players they will not have a choice, since ilvl is the first most important thing to focus on as a tank.
I am just comparing melds because here is where the choice we really have, tenacity with mix of D hit where you cant put more tenacity against pure D hit melds.

Right now the difference sit at exact 1.7% on damage and 4.3% mitigation, with few d-hit melds its basically about 1.6% and 4.0%.
My advice, melds whatever you want, it will still give you something useful, tenacity is not useless otherwise it would be buffed.

[YojimboM]

I am not advocating for making maximum tenacity and take the maximum possible tenacity from equipment, because for most of the players they will not have a choice, since ilvl is the first most important thing to focus on as a tank.
I am just comparing melds because here is where the choice we really have, tenacity with mix of D hit where you cant put more tenacity against pure D hit melds.

Right now the difference sit at exact 1.7% on damage and 4.3% mitigation, with few d-hit melds its basically about 1.6% and 4.0%.
My advice, melds whatever you want, it will still give you something useful, tenacity is not useless otherwise it would be buffed.

You still aren't reading the website I linked correctly. The difference is far higher than that. And DH is not the only thing you'd meld in the place of tenacity, crit is a higher gain than DH in most cases so you'd optimize to a breakpoint for that first and then fill in DH. You're literally cherrypicking random numbers to try to make some kind of comparison that favors tenacity when, in fact, tenacity is never favored. Tenacity is not going to save you unless you go to extreme amounts of it (which would be it's only purpose, "less healer pressure" is a mathematical red herring), and in content that ~85%+ of the playerbase runs (DF content, 24-man raids, 8-man normal raids, etc), tenacity would be entirely useless for any of them in comparison to proper crit/DH melds.