Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[Proxanna]

I think 5% is an extremely low estimate. That said, according to a recent poll (https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._according_to/), most jobs only have 5% of the player base maining them. So by your estimate not having talents is the equivalent of deleting an entire job.

I also think you would use different abilities for different situations, so I believe the vast majority of players would use the system because it actually would be "optimal" to switch abilities around for different bosses. That would give some variety in gameplay within a job even while you're doing your Savage runs over and over again.

I don't see what that poll has to do with anything? That's not really a proper comparison since there's 17 jobs total, so of course the percentage per job is going to be lower. I also don't see how adding a completely new system with spanning talent trees for 17 different jobs is the equivalent of deleting one of the already existing jobs in the game. Can you elaborate on that?

[GrenGarm]

I don't see what that poll has to do with anything? That's not really a proper comparison since there's 17 jobs total, so of course the percentage per job is going to be lower. I also don't see how adding a completely new system with spanning talent trees for 17 different jobs is the equivalent of deleting one of the already existing jobs in the game. Can you elaborate on that?

I'm just saying, even if we take your 5% number at face value (which I wholeheartedly disagree with), that's still the same number of players who prefer an entire job. So if you design talents for the "5% of players" who will actually use them according to you, that's the same number who would main a new job. Square seems to think a new job is worth all the dev time just for those 5%.

[ItsDevinHere]

I'm just saying, even if we take your 5% number at face value (which I wholeheartedly disagree with), that's still the same number of players who prefer an entire job. So if you design talents for the "5% of players" who will actually use them according to you, that's the same number who would main a new job. Square seems to think a new job is worth all the dev time just for those 5%.

That is an incredible reach you trying for there Garm. You're really trying to win out with your argument. There's a big difference between talking about what percentage each class is played and whether to add something small and MAKING AN ENTIRE NEW SYSTEM. Do you really think those two are even comparable? You're again trying to compare something that effects few people versus something that would effect 100% of the playerbase. I don't think you're understanding that. Like it's been explained to you 100 times over this thread and you've refused to see it lmao. Adding a new job doesn't effect 100% of the playerbase, it only effects those 5% you're saying switch to it. But adding a talent system, it literally effects EVERYONE you make it seem like it's okay because those 5% want it and SE makes stuff for the 5% they don't make stuff for the 5% that effect the entire population of the game, like shit that's just simple logic. Like at this point I don't even know why I'm bothering to try and convince you that there's merits to other side of the argument. You clearly think you're 100% right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is 100% wrong. And a guildmaster? Really in WoW? Considering your comments about how not most people use optimal talents in WoW you're either lying out of your ass, or were in some weird guild and never interacted with literally anyone else in the game.

[GrenGarm]

That is an incredible reach you trying for there Garm. You're really trying to win out with your argument. There's a big difference between talking about what percentage each class is played and whether to add something small and MAKING AN ENTIRE NEW SYSTEM. Do you really think those two are even comparable? You're again trying to compare something that effects few people versus something that would effect 100% of the playerbase. I don't think you're understanding that. Like it's been explained to you 100 times over this thread and you've refused to see it lmao. Adding a new job doesn't effect 100% of the playerbase, it only effects those 5% you're saying switch to it. But adding a talent system, it literally effects EVERYONE you make it seem like it's okay because those 5% want it and SE makes stuff for the 5% they don't make stuff for the 5% that effect the entire population of the game, like shit that's just simple logic. Like at this point I don't even know why I'm bothering to try and convince you that there's merits to other side of the argument. You clearly think you're 100% right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is 100% wrong. And a guildmaster? Really in WoW? Considering your comments about how not most people use optimal talents in WoW you're either lying out of your ass, or were in some weird guild and never interacted with literally anyone else in the game.

I guarantee you if you polled the player base, more than 5% of people would want job customization. You're pulling that number out of thin air and using it to justify your entire point.

Of course it would affect everyone, but according to you, people could just "opt out" of the system by taking the optimal talents and leaving it at that, if they want to. So what's the harm? It couldn't take more work than creating an entirely new job. They don't have to create that many new abilities, just shift some of the ones we have now to be talents next time they're already adding new abilities for the next expansion.

I never said most people don't use optimal talents in WoW. Most players, especially DPS, do use the optimal builds. But WoW's talents aren't really talents anymore. They don't complement a spec -- they complete it, because the specs are so bare bones without them. So I would not advocate for a system like that in FF. I gave an example later in the thread of what I had in mind for this game.

I'm just saying more people than you think don't play MMOs optimally or care about being optimal.

As a GM, I always encouraged people to optimize their classes but I never forced anyone to do so down to the level of which talents to pick, as long as their performance was good enough. We weren't going for world firsts though.

EDIT: Punctuation