Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[Xia_Thas]

Except you have to re-level and gear every job you play, which makes it no different than any other game where you just level a different character and gear it.

Except you get gear along the way for more than just your main class (SHB MSQ excluded which got rid of that) you also don't need armor until lv70 now anyways because you can run PoTD and HoH and level those up fast. Then when your class is 70 you can just buy base gear from a vendor and be perfectly fine. It's practically given to you now a days.

Again The point is SE went with a Job System vs a Talent System. There's not point debating the implementation of something that won't happen. And if it did out of no where then boy oh boy can't wait to see the forums going crazy with a wild new class system added 10+years into a game's life-cycle.

[Xyr]

Except you get gear along the way for more than just your main class (SHB MSQ excluded which got rid of that) you also don't need armor until lv70 now anyways because you can run PoTD and HoH and level those up fast. Then when your class is 70 you can just buy base gear from a vendor and be perfectly fine. It's practically given to you now a days.

Again The point is SE went with a Job System vs a Talent System. There's not point debating the implementation of something that won't happen. And if it did out of no where then boy oh boy can't wait to see the forums going crazy with a wild new class system added 10+years into a game's life-cycle.

Again, that happens in every other game, in fact, in most other games it's even easier. You got int gear? Works on all int classes. You get dex gear? Work on all dex classes. You get str gear? Work all str classes. FFXIV is not any simpler or more efficient.

[Xia_Thas]

Again, that happens in every other game, in fact, in most other games it's even easier. You got int gear? Works on all int classes. You get dex gear? Work on all dex classes. You get str gear? Work all str classes. FFXIV is not any simpler or more efficient.

You know we are getting off topic so I’ll just give it to you. Lali-ho!

[ItsDevinHere]

Except you are using balance as a excuse when FFXIV has way worse balance and is probably one of the worst balanced games in MMORPG history.

So far, your reasonings for saying the talent system is bad are:
Bad balance (moot because many games, including FFXIV has way worse balance and does not possess a talent system.)
WoW has not been doing good (moot because regardless of whether WoW was doing good or bad, it always had talents.)

Unless you can give another example or another reasoning as to why the talent system is bad and FFXIV shouldn't use it. I really don't see any valid points so far.

As for my points, I already stated numerous times:
Talents bring more diversity(statistically true)
Gives more choices( also true even if the number of choices are not high due to optimization)
Is more fun( personal preference)

You know it's okay to be like half wrong right? Like how I admitted that talents have a small choice and that the black mage is on top? You're doing what GrenGarm is doing and completely denying the fact that the other side even has a valid point just because you want Talents. There have been multiple valid points given so far, that either you're ignoring, are blind, or just that arrogant on being correct, so I'll restate them for you.

Point One - The way they balance jobs in FFXIV is completely different to other games. It's NOT broken, it's done exactly how they want it. As stated, they balance the jobs not just for getting all the classes to be close in dps. They do it based on what the job brings to the group. Black Mage for example does pure damage, that's all they do, so they do the most damage. Now we take Dancer they give lots of supporting buffs, so they do less damage than the Black Mage class which can only do damage. Are you getting my point here? Not all classes do similar damage because each classes bring something different. If a Dancer could do just as much damage as a black mage but have all those buffs still, Black Mage would be obsolete.

Point Two - It would immediately make the community more toxic, this happens in every MMO and any of you trying to state otherwise are deluded. People will gang up on anyone who isn't using the correct talents, and raids will refuse to group with you for them.

Point Three - They are almost always done poorly and it justs leads to it being a useless system. I'll use WoW as example, but can use other MMOs like Rift for example. They have talents, but in reality there is only a few valid options while the rest are voided, so why even have the option to pick something.

Now to counter your points, your points are just empty air. It brings more diversity and choices? You make it sounds like by default that means its a good thing. More diversity and choices is NOT always a good thing. If there's diversity that leads to toxicity between players and then choices that are useless why even have the option?

[ItsDevinHere]

A. Nowhere did I say this system should emulate WoW. WoW's classes are garbage right now. I posted a more specific version of what I imagine later in the thread, which is more like the old cross-class system but specific to each job.

B. Just because people will gravitate to the build that does 2% more DPS than the other one doesn't mean it's an "illusion of choice." Plenty of people will choose to play the job the way they prefer. Don't generalize.

C. What hardcore raiders do is entirely irrelevant to the average player of this game or any game.

You should just read my long comment to you on page 10 before even trying to make the same points again please. Average players copy what hardcore raiders do, it always happens. But I explain that in my comment, so please read it before you start saying that same stuff again.

I've read through the whole thread. There's a few things I've noticed, first being you either ignore a comment by not replying to it (or you don't see it, ill give you some benefit of the doubt but my point still stands), or you simply try to make an counter-argument, but end up making the same argument, but just phrasing it different like you just did again, though I will give to you that you actually added a couple different things this time, but it took you 9 pages of responses to do that. You do though repeat yourself without trying to make a different case on why it's a good idea to have talents. You keep saying it's diverse and fun in a different way over and over, you gotta have more reasons than that for an MMO and counter why the other people are wrong about it making it less fun and not toxic, this isn't a single-player game where that can be considered fine and a good idea simply because it's diverse and more fun.

Second, your strawman argument you've thrown out like 10 times, I really don't think you know what that word means. Here's the definition "A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent." There was at no point in time that someone added words you didn't say. You stated that many other MMOs use talents and therefore FFXIV should be able to do it. People countered that by saying those MMOs generally do a bad job at it and it just ends up being a metapick for the best talents. You then stated that some MMOs do it correctly, then people asked you to give some examples, you then said it was a strawman argument. I don't think you meant it badly, but it just makes it sound like you don't know any MMOs that do it right, but don't want to be wrong, so you say his argument is invalid. I hope you understand where they're coming from now.

Third, and what has been reiterated about 30 times here. FFXIV is too rigid and is meant for people to easily pick up and play. Adding talents, will immediately complicate that and make it harder for new players because they now have to worry about picking talents, XIV is also just not designed in a way to allow talents, it's designed to balance the jobs, adding talents will further complicate that to where the devs would have to try to balance all these talents, and make sure that each different choice that someone can pick is the exact same viability as the other ones then on TOP of that they then have to balance that job with the other jobs, which is basically never going to happen for FFXIV, im sorry to tell you, Yoshi has said it himself as someone has stated.

Lastly, your argument that only hardcore raiders will use optimal builds and the rest of people will use the skills they will enjoy is false. One, no, not only hardcore raiders will use optimal builds, even casual raiders will use optimal builds. Literally look at basically any other MMO and you will see that even the casuals use the optimal builds. You will get kicked from a group for not having the optimal build, yes even in casual raids. But even beyond that point, I don't think you understand the affect adding skills would have on the community, if you think it's toxic now (which I completely disagree with) then you will be in for a surprise if they added skills. After a couple months of it being out, players will learn the optimal build, and now this build will be standard. Everybody will use it, anybody that doesn't use it will get either kicked from groups or yelled at, it will happen, it will not only be hardcore raiders, it happens in every MMO with talent trees that work like that. I've played a good number of MMOs in my years and even in dungeons people will get mad at you for having the wrong talents. This is just the life of talents, I think most people here want to avoid that.

I think your main issue, is that you don't want to be wrong/only your opinion is right. Everyone is just stating their opinions, and people are even conceding that the other side has some points on some things. But you consistently refuse to even acknowledge that the other side has a point, and just kept countering with the same argument, just look back at your comments to see. I think you just need to take a step back and realize what you're doing. It's okay not to win every argument you have. It seems like this thread and your comments is more of you stating your opinion as fact and everyone needs to agree with you.

[Xiaoki]

Considering how bad of a spot WoW is in lately I'd say anything from it should be lessons other developers learn from vs blindly implementing into their game that's not been balanced for it for nearly a decade. There's a reason we even have the WoW Refugee memes, the game is going downhill so maybe keep it's garbage out of FFXIV?

FF14 just implemented spells with multiple charges. That is also a system that WoW has always had. I guess that means FF14s "Charged Action System" is bad because it is garbage from WoW right?

Now that you think about it WoW also had a global cooldown, hotbars for spells, dungeons and raids, and characters in a persistent world before FF14 so get rid of all that as well because its just WoW garbage.

[GrenGarm]

To address a few points:

--Players will do what hardcore raiders do. DPS is all that matters.
--Offering a choice will turn the community against you if you make the wrong choice.

The thing is, even if you're right for MOST players (and I'm not saying you are -- far from it), you're still generalizing. You're painting every player with the same brush. That's not how MMOs work. There are players in this game, and in every MMO, that play the game in ways that you never would or could even understand.

I guarantee you there are players out there who do nothing in this game but fish or play Triple Triad. The game would not be better if you took out those things, even if the majority of players never touch them.

MMOs are supposed to be about creating a world and letting you do what you want within the world the designers created. I will always play these games the way that's most fun for me.

At the same time, I like to be good at my role. I read guides, and I try to do my best. I never want to hold a group back, even if it's just a leveling dungeon. That said, if I'm offered a choice between two abilities, and one is super annoying to use but a 3% DPS gain on a target dummy, and the other one is fun for me, I'm going to take that marginal DPS loss.

If someone wanted to kick me out for that, as dumb as that is assuming I'm still fully capable of clearing the content, so be it. I think spicing up the jobs with some options is worth those dumb situations cropping up once in a while.

And these:

--Square sucks at balance so they would suck at designing talents.
--Other games in the past have had talent systems that weren't great, so for that reason any talent system made for FFXIV could never be good.

I have faith that Square could design a satisfying and well-balanced system eventually, however they decided to implement one. It would probably be rough around the edges at first, sure, but they are willing to work to get things right, listen to players, and keep improving things. I think the longevity of the game would benefit, because every job gets a little dull when it plays the exact same for two years straight and you can't alter your rotation in any way. I also think at some point Square will run out of ways to give us new job abilities in expansions. So what then?

Apparently there are very few people who agree with me on these points. And that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I did not expect such fierce backlash to this idea, and I apologize if I offended anyone with my posts.

[EDIT: Typo]

[TankHunter678]

FF14 just implemented spells with multiple charges. That is also a system that WoW has always had. I guess that means FF14s "Charged Action System" is bad because it is garbage from WoW right?

Now that you think about it WoW also had a global cooldown, hotbars for spells, dungeons and raids, and characters in a persistent world before FF14 so get rid of all that as well because its just WoW garbage.

Multiple charges has also been a thing in a large number of RPGs, it is not exclusively a WoW thing, in fact it predates WoW as it is as old as DnD. Same thing with global cooldown which has been in final fantasy games for far longer then WoW has existed, same thing with dungeons, raids also pre-date WoW because WoW took a bunch of things from different MMOs at the time and just mashed them into one MMO. Persistent world is as old as RPGs are.

[ItsDevinHere]

To address a few points:

Apparently there are very few people who agree with me on these points. And that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I did not expect such fierce backlash to this idea, and I apologize if I offended anyone with my posts. (ItsDevinHere - Shortened Quote for Space)

[EDIT: Typo]

Don't worry about the offending part, you haven't offended anyone. I was just stating it seems like you don't want to acknowledge the downsides of a talent system.

Now yes, I'm generalizing, but you have to realize and if somehow you haven't realized this here's a wake-up check, that's EXACTLY what Developers do when they implement any type of new feature or system, it's like how when they take polls in real life and if 100,000 Americans say one thing and 20,000 say the other, they assume that 80% of America agrees with that first side, which obviously they cant actually know that, but they use the data to round it up. I think the point here is what you think most players will do. I think most players are going to want to do what is the optimal thing to do, which is a trend I have noticed in nearly any MMO I've ever played, and I'm sure there's plenty of people here who will agree with me. I'd like to know what and where you played where this wasn't a thing. I generalized it because from what we've seen in most of the MMO's is that most people do what the most optimal builds are and therefore that is EXACTLY what a developer is going to assume too.

Do you also not realize you basically nullified your own argument with that second to last statement? You state that few people agree with you on your points, but have stated multiple times before that most people would do what they want and not follow the leads of others.

I can't disagree with you on people who just fish or play triple triad, but it kinda has nothing to do with this situation and is completely different. That is something that doesn't effect every player if removed, we're talking about adding Talents which effect every player so that example just doesn't work. There obviously people who will do weird things that arent what most people do, but that's why they're in the minority, which I don't think you realize you're in?

From your MMO statement, it sounds more like you're projecting the way you play MMOs onto other people as the correct way to play MMOs which is to have as many options and diversity as possible, which sounds awesome in theory, I'm not saying it doesn't, but in practice it's a considerably harder thing to do or we wouldn't be debating it.

What you consider dumb, doesn't mean everyone else considers it dumb. People aren't kicking you because they think you're incapable of clearing content in that sense. They're kicking you because you don't follow what people have determined is the optimal builds, so they assume either you don't know what you're doing or you're then actively refusing to try to be the best your job can be and help out as much as possible. This might sound dumb, but people just dont like to take those chances. And I again need to state I don't think you've raided that much, because it really is a common practice, try pugging for a group in WoW with the wrong talents and you will never get a response. Or Trying pugging in say Rift (old example I know) with a random assortment of talents and you will never get a response. The only way you'd feasibly able to get away with using a skill that's slightly worse, but more fun with you is if you join a guild and show them you can be good without it and they're willing to accept that.

Well on your last point I mean I can't really argue if you believe in Square Enix. Though for the life of me, I don't know how anyone believes in Square Enix lol its a running joke that they suck. Though I do disagree on your point on saying that it doesn't matter if other games did talent systems bad. It absolutely matters, that's clear evidence that it barely ever works, so a Dev seeing that evidence is going to be less likely to even try to make a talent system. It's exactly how research and analysis is done, that's just simple math.

P.S You still can't admit the other side has a point can you lol, you almost did it there at the end, but backtracked and doubled down on your opinion.

[ColaSama]

FF14 just implemented spells with multiple charges. That is also a system that WoW has always had. I guess that means FF14s "Charged Action System" is bad because it is garbage from WoW right?

Now that you think about it WoW also had a global cooldown, hotbars for spells, dungeons and raids, and characters in a persistent world before FF14 so get rid of all that as well because its just WoW garbage.

Please, let the grown ups talk sweetie. He was talking about the garbage that is talent tree balance and, as a whole, class balance, so get out with your pointless arguments.

You sounded like this : "You argument is sooo silly I mean FF14 has a human race -_- -_- just like WoW -_- -_- so put that garbage out ??". I mean, come on man, dungeons and raids ? Really ?

Listen : some of us played WoW since the start. And everyone since that day complained about class balance and "illusion of choice" talent trees, with OP talents ruining the balance for a whole raid tier (SURRENDER TO MADNESS AM I RIGHT). It's still the same garbage balance nowaday (F for RShaman).