Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[GrenGarm]

To address a few points:

--Players will do what hardcore raiders do. DPS is all that matters.
--Offering a choice will turn the community against you if you make the wrong choice.

The thing is, even if you're right for MOST players (and I'm not saying you are -- far from it), you're still generalizing. You're painting every player with the same brush. That's not how MMOs work. There are players in this game, and in every MMO, that play the game in ways that you never would or could even understand.

I guarantee you there are players out there who do nothing in this game but fish or play Triple Triad. The game would not be better if you took out those things, even if the majority of players never touch them.

MMOs are supposed to be about creating a world and letting you do what you want within the world the designers created. I will always play these games the way that's most fun for me.

At the same time, I like to be good at my role. I read guides, and I try to do my best. I never want to hold a group back, even if it's just a leveling dungeon. That said, if I'm offered a choice between two abilities, and one is super annoying to use but a 3% DPS gain on a target dummy, and the other one is fun for me, I'm going to take that marginal DPS loss.

If someone wanted to kick me out for that, as dumb as that is assuming I'm still fully capable of clearing the content, so be it. I think spicing up the jobs with some options is worth those dumb situations cropping up once in a while.

And these:

--Square sucks at balance so they would suck at designing talents.
--Other games in the past have had talent systems that weren't great, so for that reason any talent system made for FFXIV could never be good.

I have faith that Square could design a satisfying and well-balanced system eventually, however they decided to implement one. It would probably be rough around the edges at first, sure, but they are willing to work to get things right, listen to players, and keep improving things. I think the longevity of the game would benefit, because every job gets a little dull when it plays the exact same for two years straight and you can't alter your rotation in any way. I also think at some point Square will run out of ways to give us new job abilities in expansions. So what then?

Apparently there are very few people who agree with me on these points. And that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I did not expect such fierce backlash to this idea, and I apologize if I offended anyone with my posts.

[EDIT: Typo]

[ItsDevinHere]

To address a few points:

Apparently there are very few people who agree with me on these points. And that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I did not expect such fierce backlash to this idea, and I apologize if I offended anyone with my posts. (ItsDevinHere - Shortened Quote for Space)

[EDIT: Typo]

Don't worry about the offending part, you haven't offended anyone. I was just stating it seems like you don't want to acknowledge the downsides of a talent system.

Now yes, I'm generalizing, but you have to realize and if somehow you haven't realized this here's a wake-up check, that's EXACTLY what Developers do when they implement any type of new feature or system, it's like how when they take polls in real life and if 100,000 Americans say one thing and 20,000 say the other, they assume that 80% of America agrees with that first side, which obviously they cant actually know that, but they use the data to round it up. I think the point here is what you think most players will do. I think most players are going to want to do what is the optimal thing to do, which is a trend I have noticed in nearly any MMO I've ever played, and I'm sure there's plenty of people here who will agree with me. I'd like to know what and where you played where this wasn't a thing. I generalized it because from what we've seen in most of the MMO's is that most people do what the most optimal builds are and therefore that is EXACTLY what a developer is going to assume too.

Do you also not realize you basically nullified your own argument with that second to last statement? You state that few people agree with you on your points, but have stated multiple times before that most people would do what they want and not follow the leads of others.

I can't disagree with you on people who just fish or play triple triad, but it kinda has nothing to do with this situation and is completely different. That is something that doesn't effect every player if removed, we're talking about adding Talents which effect every player so that example just doesn't work. There obviously people who will do weird things that arent what most people do, but that's why they're in the minority, which I don't think you realize you're in?

From your MMO statement, it sounds more like you're projecting the way you play MMOs onto other people as the correct way to play MMOs which is to have as many options and diversity as possible, which sounds awesome in theory, I'm not saying it doesn't, but in practice it's a considerably harder thing to do or we wouldn't be debating it.

What you consider dumb, doesn't mean everyone else considers it dumb. People aren't kicking you because they think you're incapable of clearing content in that sense. They're kicking you because you don't follow what people have determined is the optimal builds, so they assume either you don't know what you're doing or you're then actively refusing to try to be the best your job can be and help out as much as possible. This might sound dumb, but people just dont like to take those chances. And I again need to state I don't think you've raided that much, because it really is a common practice, try pugging for a group in WoW with the wrong talents and you will never get a response. Or Trying pugging in say Rift (old example I know) with a random assortment of talents and you will never get a response. The only way you'd feasibly able to get away with using a skill that's slightly worse, but more fun with you is if you join a guild and show them you can be good without it and they're willing to accept that.

Well on your last point I mean I can't really argue if you believe in Square Enix. Though for the life of me, I don't know how anyone believes in Square Enix lol its a running joke that they suck. Though I do disagree on your point on saying that it doesn't matter if other games did talent systems bad. It absolutely matters, that's clear evidence that it barely ever works, so a Dev seeing that evidence is going to be less likely to even try to make a talent system. It's exactly how research and analysis is done, that's just simple math.

P.S You still can't admit the other side has a point can you lol, you almost did it there at the end, but backtracked and doubled down on your opinion.

[GrenGarm]

I again need to state I don't think you've raided that much, because it really is a common practice, try pugging for a group in WoW with the wrong talents and you will never get a response. Or Trying pugging in say Rift (old example I know) with a random assortment of talents and you will never get a response. The only way you'd feasibly able to get away with using a skill that's slightly worse, but more fun with you is if you join a guild and show them you can be good without it and they're willing to accept that.

I was a hardcore raider going back to the early 2000s, my friend. For five years I was also a guildmaster and raid leader. That's part of why I feel the way I do. I'm tired of playing a class/job the optimal way for that 3% DPS gain even if I don't find it fun. No, I wouldn't expect a raid group to take me if I did that.

Yes, I think it would be healthy for FFXIV to offer choices, because most of the content in this game is easily clearable without optimal anything. The reasonable players in this game understand that, and I do think that's most of us.

MMOs are an old genre now. There are a lot of people like me these days who are burned out on raiding and just want to play these types of game for fun. More and more of us every day.

[Proxanna]

To address a few points:

--Players will do what hardcore raiders do. DPS is all that matters.
--Offering a choice will turn the community against you if you make the wrong choice.

The thing is, even if you're right for MOST players (and I'm not saying you are -- far from it), you're still generalizing. You're painting every player with the same brush. That's not how MMOs work. There are players in this game, and in every MMO, that play the game in ways that you never would or could even understand.

[EDIT: Typo]

So let's say that yes, MOST players will go with the optimal build and there's maybe 5% of the player base that wants to be a special snowflake and do their own wacky build. That's a lot of time, effort, and resources going into designing and balancing talent trees for 17 different jobs to cater to those 5% that want to feel unique. Every MMO that's started out with a cool and spanning talent tree system has simplified them and made them a lot more rigid over the years because it's too hard for them to balance. Now I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to have more customization choices. I mean that's a big part of why we play MMOs is because of the customization right? I'm just saying I don't see them doing it because of the above mentioned issues.

That being said, instead of having unique talent trees for each job they could do talent trees based on role. So for example, there could be a Ranged DPS talent tree where you could spec to be more support oriented versus damage oriented, sort of similar to how they did role actions but with a bit more depth. That might be at least a LITTLE bit easier to balance. But again, I just don't see them doing it because of the work required.

[GrenGarm]

So let's say that yes, MOST players will go with the optimal build and there's maybe 5% of the player base that wants to be a special snowflake and do their own wacky build. That's a lot of time, effort, and resources going into designing and balancing talent trees for 17 different jobs to cater to those 5% that want to feel unique. Every MMO that's started out with a cool and spanning talent tree system has simplified them and made them a lot more rigid over the years because it's too hard for them to balance. Now I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to have more customization choices. I mean that's a big part of why we play MMOs is because of the customization right? I'm just saying I don't see them doing it because of the above mentioned issues.

That being said, instead of having unique talent trees for each job they could do talent trees based on role. So for example, there could be a Ranged DPS talent tree where you could spec to be more support oriented versus damage oriented, sort of similar to how they did role actions but with a bit more depth. That might be at least a LITTLE bit easier to balance. But again, I just don't see them doing it because of the work required.

I think 5% is an extremely low estimate. That said, according to a recent poll (https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._according_to/), most jobs only have 5% of the player base maining them. So by your estimate not having talents is the equivalent of deleting an entire job.

I also think you would use different abilities for different situations, so I believe the vast majority of players would use the system because it actually would be "optimal" to switch abilities around for different bosses. That would give some variety in gameplay within a job even while you're doing your Savage runs over and over again.

[Proxanna]

I think 5% is an extremely low estimate. That said, according to a recent poll (https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._according_to/), most jobs only have 5% of the player base maining them. So by your estimate not having talents is the equivalent of deleting an entire job.

I also think you would use different abilities for different situations, so I believe the vast majority of players would use the system because it actually would be "optimal" to switch abilities around for different bosses. That would give some variety in gameplay within a job even while you're doing your Savage runs over and over again.

I don't see what that poll has to do with anything? That's not really a proper comparison since there's 17 jobs total, so of course the percentage per job is going to be lower. I also don't see how adding a completely new system with spanning talent trees for 17 different jobs is the equivalent of deleting one of the already existing jobs in the game. Can you elaborate on that?

[GrenGarm]

I don't see what that poll has to do with anything? That's not really a proper comparison since there's 17 jobs total, so of course the percentage per job is going to be lower. I also don't see how adding a completely new system with spanning talent trees for 17 different jobs is the equivalent of deleting one of the already existing jobs in the game. Can you elaborate on that?

I'm just saying, even if we take your 5% number at face value (which I wholeheartedly disagree with), that's still the same number of players who prefer an entire job. So if you design talents for the "5% of players" who will actually use them according to you, that's the same number who would main a new job. Square seems to think a new job is worth all the dev time just for those 5%.

[ItsDevinHere]

I'm just saying, even if we take your 5% number at face value (which I wholeheartedly disagree with), that's still the same number of players who prefer an entire job. So if you design talents for the "5% of players" who will actually use them according to you, that's the same number who would main a new job. Square seems to think a new job is worth all the dev time just for those 5%.

That is an incredible reach you trying for there Garm. You're really trying to win out with your argument. There's a big difference between talking about what percentage each class is played and whether to add something small and MAKING AN ENTIRE NEW SYSTEM. Do you really think those two are even comparable? You're again trying to compare something that effects few people versus something that would effect 100% of the playerbase. I don't think you're understanding that. Like it's been explained to you 100 times over this thread and you've refused to see it lmao. Adding a new job doesn't effect 100% of the playerbase, it only effects those 5% you're saying switch to it. But adding a talent system, it literally effects EVERYONE you make it seem like it's okay because those 5% want it and SE makes stuff for the 5% they don't make stuff for the 5% that effect the entire population of the game, like shit that's just simple logic. Like at this point I don't even know why I'm bothering to try and convince you that there's merits to other side of the argument. You clearly think you're 100% right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is 100% wrong. And a guildmaster? Really in WoW? Considering your comments about how not most people use optimal talents in WoW you're either lying out of your ass, or were in some weird guild and never interacted with literally anyone else in the game.

[GrenGarm]

That is an incredible reach you trying for there Garm. You're really trying to win out with your argument. There's a big difference between talking about what percentage each class is played and whether to add something small and MAKING AN ENTIRE NEW SYSTEM. Do you really think those two are even comparable? You're again trying to compare something that effects few people versus something that would effect 100% of the playerbase. I don't think you're understanding that. Like it's been explained to you 100 times over this thread and you've refused to see it lmao. Adding a new job doesn't effect 100% of the playerbase, it only effects those 5% you're saying switch to it. But adding a talent system, it literally effects EVERYONE you make it seem like it's okay because those 5% want it and SE makes stuff for the 5% they don't make stuff for the 5% that effect the entire population of the game, like shit that's just simple logic. Like at this point I don't even know why I'm bothering to try and convince you that there's merits to other side of the argument. You clearly think you're 100% right and everyone who doesn't agree with you is 100% wrong. And a guildmaster? Really in WoW? Considering your comments about how not most people use optimal talents in WoW you're either lying out of your ass, or were in some weird guild and never interacted with literally anyone else in the game.

I guarantee you if you polled the player base, more than 5% of people would want job customization. You're pulling that number out of thin air and using it to justify your entire point.

Of course it would affect everyone, but according to you, people could just "opt out" of the system by taking the optimal talents and leaving it at that, if they want to. So what's the harm? It couldn't take more work than creating an entirely new job. They don't have to create that many new abilities, just shift some of the ones we have now to be talents next time they're already adding new abilities for the next expansion.

I never said most people don't use optimal talents in WoW. Most players, especially DPS, do use the optimal builds. But WoW's talents aren't really talents anymore. They don't complement a spec -- they complete it, because the specs are so bare bones without them. So I would not advocate for a system like that in FF. I gave an example later in the thread of what I had in mind for this game.

I'm just saying more people than you think don't play MMOs optimally or care about being optimal.

As a GM, I always encouraged people to optimize their classes but I never forced anyone to do so down to the level of which talents to pick, as long as their performance was good enough. We weren't going for world firsts though.

EDIT: Punctuation