Why are white mages allergic to regen?

[Raven2014]

At best, you are overhealing your tank, and not getting smacked.

Tank still take damage during pull, they recently adds arm length for tank to help with that but it seems not many have catch on. 9/10 time I don't see tank use it during pull. It probably doesn't matter, but a few tick of regen is enough to cover the damage between the first group and the second group, so it's not exactly wasting.

At worse, the enemies are far apart, all of them rush the healer, and time is wasted.

Doesn't happen to me when I'm tanking.

If a healer is going to put a regen on a tank, and continue to do so then they shouldn't be surprised when they start tanking mobs.

You may let that happen to your healer, I don't let that happen to mine. See the difference?

Even worse - I've had healers Regen me DURING a pull. I still don't need the healing, but the healer puts that extra bit of screw you sprinkles right on top of my plate.

That seems to be a tank problem rather then a healer problem. I'll say this flat out, straight up leaving no room for uncertainty: if regens manage to pull the mobs off you DURING a pull (as you emphasized yourself), then that is 101% tank problem.

If you enjoy having to deal with it, so be it - but at the very least stop calling over-healing a "good play"

I don't have to deal with it, because it has never been a problem to me. And it's a bit funny to talking about a tiny little bit amount of overhealing in a thread that 90% of the complains seem about to beg the WHM to heal more lol.

[Vahlnir]

While what you say to do is definitely what you should be doing as a tank (and is what I try to do, especially nowadays), I wouldn't go quite as far as to say you'll never have the problem again. Some enemies have different detection ranges and movement speeds, both of which may throw off your AoE timing and cause you to miss mobs. I see this happen frequently with newer tanks in particular.

Oh yeah, it's definitely not black and white. Tanking requires a bit of adaptation to many situations anyway.

[EaMett]

Putting a regen before a pull in a dungeon is standard and good play. You use your GCD while you're out of combat. Putting regen during the pull is less efficient but still ok. You just run alongside your tank and stack with them at the end. Stray mobs can be a thing if the tank misses them but it's fine, if the tank is aoe dpsing (and he should) you won't keep them long.
Super annoying when a tank removes regen.

[Raven2014]

While what you say to do is definitely what you should be doing as a tank (and is what I try to do, especially nowadays), I wouldn't go quite as far as to say you'll never have the problem again. Some enemies have different detection ranges and movement speeds, both of which may throw off your AoE timing and cause you to miss mobs. I see this happen frequently with newer tanks in particular.

Just like with everything it takes practice, and maybe even a few runs to work out the kin. But if you do 100 pull and 99 went without a hitch, I say that's as good as 100/100. Pop your sprint during pull, sometime you will see tank for some reason run into mob pack at a certain angle ...etc... I just want to pointed of a very common misconception about this particular problem that when a situation like this happens, then it's 1 part the healer fault and 9 part the tanks don't do it right (i.e open with a range attack).

Hell, if regen is enough to cause problem people would have a field day running with some DNC, as many love to do their dance during pull, which generate far more emnity then a regen can. But the problem is moot if the tanks do it right, I just dislike how people love to lay blame on others instead of thinking of a way to improve their own play.

For the record, I don't put regen on my tank when I'm a WHM because it's not necessary for me. There is another trick to WHM to ensure you tank takes no damage during a pull that only a WHM can do.

[EaMett]

See, in my mind that doesn't really matter. Heal now, heal later, you still need to heal before the next mechanic, or at least before the next unavoidable mechanic. In fact times like these are where HoTs should really shine. Obviously I'm not gonna say put a regen on everyone, thats 8 gcds, but an aoe HoT is just one cast, lets you get back to dps, and should heal people enough to survive the next unavoidable aoe. And if you're using an oGCD to do the aoe heal instead, well, what difference is there in popping it now vs popping it just before the next aoe?

Plenty of reasons, maybe you want to use afflatus rapture to weave assize but assize is still on cooldown or you need to wait a bit for a lily. Maybe you want to weave indom and bio is falling off in 10s. Maybe you have a SCH or SMN and you want to let them heal stuff passively so you have less work to do. Maybe you plan on shielding so you don't need to actually heal for the upcoming damage. Maybe there's an asylum or SS on the ground and you want to fully utilize that before you cast anything. Maybe you're keeping track of your co-healer's toolkit and know they could take care of it by themselves with a double weave as opposed to both of you wasting a single weave, maybe there's a phase transition or the boss will go untargeteable which will allow you to heal then Etc.. etc.. So many reasons why you would wait.

[Raven2014]

See, in my mind that doesn't really matter. Heal now, heal later, you still need to heal before the next mechanic, or at least before the next unavoidable mechanic. In fact times like these are where HoTs should really shine. Obviously I'm not gonna say put a regen on everyone, thats 8 gcds, but an aoe HoT is just one cast, lets you get back to dps, and should heal people enough to survive the next unavoidable aoe. And if you're using an oGCD to do the aoe heal instead, well, what difference is there in popping it now vs popping it just before the next aoe?

If you had read my example than it DOES matter. If you know there is a break between now and the next mechanic where you can not do anything, then essentially any GCD that you use to heal when their is target up is a "wasted" GCD, because then you have "nothing to do during the break", you just sit and wait while doing no DPS nor heal. But if you ulitize those GCD to DPS while there is a target up, and then use the break time to heal then it simply an optimum way to use both your time and resource. You contribute more to the party output (DPS), and you have less down time in your cast (since you'll be healing during the break instead of just sit there waiting).

Also example like this is why you see there are usually big gap between optimized and unoptimized groups, despite each elements sound so trivial or even petty (thus why people plays casually tend to think others as try hard). Using the same example I posted, do you know that even that very first AOE is totally avoidable. Because it comes from the middle adds, so if the party kill that add fast enough (which will be greatly helped by healer contribution) then it means there will be zero damage going to the raid, and guess what?

No damage = No heal = The best kind of heal = Even more damage.

It's kinda like a domino effect that you won't fully appreciate if you just look at one link at a time.

[NanaWiloh]

For pre-pull regen it's worth noting that overheal emnity has been significantly nerfed while anything a tank does will make mobs glue to them. It's much less of an issue now although still not optimal on dungeon mob pulls.



That can really depend.

If your healer is knowledgeable and knows what mechanics are coming up, this is good play. Why immediately heal yourself or the party if no aoes are coming up in the next 20 seconds? Nothing is going to hit you, so you could be at 1 health and in no danger whatsoever until that mechanic is due. The less experienced healer (or most players to be fair), won't have the order of every mechanic and its timing memorized and be able to resist panic at seeing low health bars. A co-healer might think "wtf why aren't they helping" when in fact they're the ones healing unnecessarily. This is mana efficient and maximizes contribution via damage.

Now of course, if anyone dies, your healer is just loading the work on you and absolutely deserves the blame.

Good players play the way your talking. I am a good healer but don't have the luxury of playing that way most of the time. As run I df only and don't touch ex or savage. DF has taught me one thing, players you there can't be trusted to stay alive at low hp. I have seen healers who try to heal df like it's savage and they kill almost as many people as bad healer cause of their misplaced faith in df players.

[AnimaAnimus]

- If Swift Cast is 10- seconds out, we most likely gonna wait for it to res.
- Most people die getting knocked of the platform, which usually follow by a long chain of AOE jumping from the boss. We have enough time to cast flare before each move, but we don't have enough time to raise.
- (Lack of) coordination between healers in pug. If we both have to hard cast a raise, chance is one of us gonna cancel it to avoid raising the same people, this could lead to a case where we keep canceling out our raise.

Also just to NOT avoid the big elephant in the room here but ... if the party got to a point where there are so many deaths that the healers can't res them all, then should you really be looking at faulting the healers?

I play healer as well, I know how things work with swift raises and such. However, yesterday I died to something stupid because I got distracted and the off healer was too busy keeping the tanks up while the whm just spammed glare. I was down maybe 30% of the entirety of the fight because the whm can't stop glare spam. I was down enough for them to have gotten off at least 3 swift casts, at least, likely more.

And while many deaths not being the healers fault could be the case, as I stated above where I just did something dumb due to distraction, which happens /shrug there are unavoidable aoes and if the sch/ast has little to no mp left because they are solo healing and the pt just flat out isn't getting healed due to glare spam, than its not the dps's fault, that IS indeed the fault of the whm. Not every hp worth of damage we take is due to a lack of dodging. Like in E2 where there are the stack and the individual aoes and out of the handful of times I have done it, the whm glare spams more than anything while the sch/ast pick up the slack.

And don't get me started how much I self heal as a rdm since 5.0. Way way more than any time before. It is to the point now that if I fall under 30% health I will just heal myself since getting a heal/regen is iffy.

[Orbus]

Good players play the way your talking. I am a good healer but don't have the luxury of playing that way most of the time. As run I df only and don't touch ex or savage. DF has taught me one thing, players you there can't be trusted to stay alive at low hp. I have seen healers who try to heal df like it's savage and they kill almost as many people as bad healer cause of their misplaced faith in df players.

This is the issue with that mentality.
You can't treat a group of randos the same as a group you've practiced with and know how to do every mechanic with little to no screw ups.
At LEAST one person is likely to screw up, possibly more, and if they screwed up once they're likely to do it again.
If you as a healer treat a duty finder group like a static the only thing you're going to accomplish is being the last one alive.

[Hatstand]

I play healer as well, I know how things work with swift raises and such. However, yesterday I died to something stupid because I got distracted and the off healer was too busy keeping the tanks up while the whm just spammed glare. I was down maybe 30% of the entirety of the fight because the whm can't stop glare spam. I was down enough for them to have gotten off at least 3 swift casts, at least, likely more.

And while many deaths not being the healers fault could be the case, as I stated above where I just did something dumb due to distraction, which happens /shrug there are unavoidable aoes and if the sch/ast has little to no mp left because they are solo healing and the pt just flat out isn't getting healed due to glare spam, than its not the dps's fault, that IS indeed the fault of the whm. Not every hp worth of damage we take is due to a lack of dodging. Like in E2 where there are the stack and the individual aoes and out of the handful of times I have done it, the whm glare spams more than anything while the sch/ast pick up the slack.

And don't get me started how much I self heal as a rdm since 5.0. Way way more than any time before. It is to the point now that if I fall under 30% health I will just heal myself since getting a heal/regen is iffy.

While letting you die is a problem, this isn’t. If the healers have things under control it’s better for them to dps than unnecessary healing.