Removing unnecessary buttons (SCH)

[Takahiro]

another SCH cry about his OP class was nerfed, what a suprise ...
want more dps ?? ------> summoner class this way and you get back are your missing skills

you are healer want dps go play dps simple as breathe

you can't have op healing and op dmg any more sry

edit : and yes I played SCH too in sb and I know it was too much as class

We never had OP DMG, we had better than WHM dmg, Now WHM has been buffed that a pro WHM can out DPS a freakin tank and they can sure as heck out DPS a mediocre RDM or DNC. There is BARELY any difference in DPS from a pro SCH to a very bad SCH now. Why? Because SCH has 2 dps moves. Broil and Ruin II. SMN had massive changes as well. SMN doesnt even have Aetherflow anymore, and they have less complexity and barely any support that they use to have. SMN is basically just a BLM lite now. So we should all just go play WHM and BLM right?

SB SCH was also, frankly, terrible in comparison to a 2.0 SCH

I want to seriously slap the next person who says "Healers should only heal." SCH was never and NEVER WILL BE a pure healer. We do not even heal. Any scholar worth their salt knows that SCH relies entirely on its shields, as our healing potency has never been as high as a WHM. If we look at data right now a WHM is exactly what you think we want. OP Healing and OP DPS. I use to be able to do as much dps as a PLD and thats all I ever asked for. I never wanted to do as much as a Bard even. JUST a PLD. All tanks and healers should be leveled out on DPS. Abit with a tiny skew towards Gunbreakers and Warriors (as a Warrior was suppose to be a DPS Tank)

Please move aside with your "Healers should only heal" logic, and go back to playing WoW.

[galbsadi]

Please move aside with your "Healers should only heal" logic, and go back to playing WoW.

Honestly, that doesn't even apply in WoW either. At the end of the day, a dead mob is a mob that's not damaging party members, so healers should ALWAYS DPS once they are safely able to do so. Now, will I hold it against another healer if they don't? No, because they might not have the same experience I do and/or they might not be as comfortable with HP bars at certain levels as I can be. However, will I DPS whenever I can? Absolutely. Doesn't matter if I have a nice fun rotation or the two buttons we do now...it still helps things go faster, and stuff die faster...and dead stuff isn't draining my tank's HP bar.

[Dynia]

We never had OP DMG, we had better than WHM dmg, Now WHM has been buffed that a pro WHM can out DPS a freakin tank and they can sure as heck out DPS a mediocre RDM or DNC. There is BARELY any difference in DPS from a pro SCH to a very bad SCH now. Why? Because SCH has 2 dps moves. Broil and Ruin II. SMN had massive changes as well. SMN doesnt even have Aetherflow anymore, and they have less complexity and barely any support that they use to have. SMN is basically just a BLM lite now. So we should all just go play WHM and BLM right?

SB SCH was also, frankly, terrible in comparison to a 2.0 SCH

I want to seriously slap the next person who says "Healers should only heal." SCH was never and NEVER WILL BE a pure healer. We do not even heal. Any scholar worth their salt knows that SCH relies entirely on its shields, as our healing potency has never been as high as a WHM. If we look at data right now a WHM is exactly what you think we want. OP Healing and OP DPS. I use to be able to do as much dps as a PLD and thats all I ever asked for. I never wanted to do as much as a Bard even. JUST a PLD. All tanks and healers should be leveled out on DPS. Abit with a tiny skew towards Gunbreakers and Warriors (as a Warrior was suppose to be a DPS Tank)

Please move aside with your "Healers should only heal" logic, and go back to playing WoW.

and who ever said tank should have better dmg then healer ? WHM should have even bigger damage then now cause have nothing more then healing in terms in utility, your utility as SCH is OP shields and you still want more damage ?! you are too greedy and don't even know to how balance should works

dude if you not playing healer for healing and for keep your party alive as main priority and want to dps more then healing you don't deserve to play healer, im happy that SE made this changes that will keep some ppls with your mentality away from healing class

[Hatstand]

and who ever said tank should have better dmg then healer ? WHM should have even bigger damage then now cause have nothing more then healing in terms in utility, your utility as SCH is OP shields and you still want more damage ?! you are too greedy and don't even know to how balance should works

dude if you not playing healer for healing and for keep your party alive as main priority and want to dps more then healing you don't deserve to play healer, im happy that SE made this changes that will keep some ppls with your mentality away from healing class

Seriously, are you a troll?

A) As was said above, SCH has far weaker heals than WHM (I've played both and WHM can recover people's HP so much faster). Our shields aren't our utility. They're the main component of our healing kit.

B) As was also said above, most SCHs want more complex dps, not more effective dps. I'm happy for WHMs to continue to have the biggest numbers. I just want more than 4 dps buttons across my entire kit

C) We don't deserve to play healers... okay. Wow.

[Dynia]

Seriously, are you a troll?

A) As was said above, SCH has far weaker heals than WHM (I've played both and WHM can recover people's HP so much faster). Our shields aren't our utility. They're the main component of our healing kit.

B) As was also said above, most SCHs want more complex dps, not more effective dps. I'm happy for WHMs to continue to have the biggest numbers. I just want more than 4 dps buttons across my entire kit

C) We don't deserve to play healers... okay. Wow.

yes, I have different opinion than yours, im troll

again this complex dps, why you need more direct hit skills than broil ? its just different animation on what mob get by, more keys for different animations is not needed on healer
you want more dot skills ? more dots = bigger dps so stop lying
why you want more than 1 aoe ? again different animation what mob will be hitted by ...
want more than 4 dps buttons ? ---> dps class this way you are healer
this dps mania on healers gets absurd

also : I dpsing while my party hp is full

[Hatstand]

yes, I have different opinion than yours, im troll

again this complex dps, why you need more direct hit skills than broil ? its just different animation on what mob get by, more keys for different animations is not needed on healer
you want more dot skills ? more dots = bigger dps so stop lying
why you want more than 1 aoe ? again different animation what mob will be hitted by ...
want more than 4 dps buttons ? ---> dps class this way you are healer
this dps mania on healers gets absurd

also : I dpsing while my party hp is full

More dots does not necessarily equal more dps. Two dots of potency 20 is less dps than one dot of potency 40, due to losing two gcds for it. We're not asking for two dots with the same potency as the dot we have now.

Also, when we say we want more dps buttons, that doesn't mean another button that does the same thing except with a different cost/potency. There can be dps buttons that do other things. I consider Presence of Mind to be a dps button, because (assuming that healing is going well enough that you don't need to use it for healing. Obviously healing gets priority) you can use it to get more dps in. Bane was a dps button and it did something different to all our other buttons (spreading dots provided a tool to get more use out of dots on an enemy that was about to die, for instance). Personally, I'm not looking for a rotation like, say, the one on dancer. I don't want more than one button that essentially does the same thing, but which have to be pressed in a particular order (except that I would like more DoTs, because keeping an eye on the duration of both was an element of complexity that I miss). I want more flexibility in my dps kit, not more power. I also want my job to require more decision making of me. Deciding to use presence of mind for DPS means it isn't available for healing. Deciding to use aetherflow stacks for energy drain means that you won't have that stack for an emergency lustrate. Those kinds of dps skills made the job more interesting to me, and pushed the skill ceiling higher.

Genuine question: why do you think it would be a bad thing for healers to have better dps? People who didn't want to use it could just ignore it, while people who did want to use it would be happy. Is it just because you're worried that WHM will become the lesser healer again? (It was in a sorry state before. This is the first xpac I've considered maining it in). If that is your main concern, can we premise any following discussion on the assumption that whatever changes are made, WHM should still have the best dps numbers of any healer, by a decent margin? I'm more than happy for them to keep that, and if we agree on that, perhaps we can better discuss what form the dps should take.

[Dynia]

Genuine question: why do you think it would be a bad thing for healers to have better dps? People who didn't want to use it could just ignore it, while people who did want to use it would be happy. Is it just because you're worried that WHM will become the lesser healer again? (It was in a sorry state before. This is the first xpac I've considered maining it in). If that is your main concern, can we premise any following discussion on the assumption that whatever changes are made, WHM should still have the best dps numbers of any healer, by a decent margin? I'm more than happy for them to keep that, and if we agree on that, perhaps we can better discuss what form the dps should take.

cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

[Hatstand]

cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

Yeah, SCH dps wasn't hard, but it was harder, and more interesting, than it is now. If they wanted to make it better than it was before, I'd have no complaints. And to be clear, when I say I would like things to be harder, I mean I'd like a higher skill ceiling.

Another genuine question: why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure? I know there are a lot of people who think it is, so I'd like to understand why.

The way I see it, there is only so much you can improve your healing: when no one is dying, you just can't do that job any better. I advocate for dps complexity because it means that there's always some way to do your job better (when you've got the healing down, and only then, you can work on optimising dps). I'd be equally happy with some sort of offensive buffing system, so long as it was decently complex and had short enough cooldowns that you could focus on maintaining it whenever there was no healing required. I'd be happy with them increasing the amount of damage incoming, so we had less reason to use our dps kits, but I think we still need to account for the fact that someone could master that harder content, and they should have something to continue to work towards at that point. Ergo the dps (or buffing system) should be there, even if most players will never use it (in group content, anyway. I imagine most would use dps in quests and whatnot).

If you have the time, I'd very much appreciate it if you told me why you think maintaining the purity of the trinity is important, how you think it stacks up against concerns like mine, and whether you can think of any solutions that would resolve my concerns while maintaining what you think is important.

Note: being able to optimise dps doesn't mean the dps has to be very powerful. Just complex enough that it's something you can improve at, and have at least a marginal benefit to your group.

[Takahiro]

cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

SCH in SB had already started the path towards being nerfed. Looked at videos of 2.0 or 3.0 SCH. This is what we want back. The dots, You were able to do about the DPS of a PLD (Worst dps of 3.0 of all tanks) and still continue healing just fine. Seeing as most of your DPS came from Dots, you could go back to healing directly after.

Please stop with the elitism and condescending tones. Im 29 years old. Iv been playing MMOs and games since I was 10. My first ever MMORPG was Tibia Online. Old School RPGs have their place, but this is FFXIV and, frankly, the old School RPG method of "Healers only Heal" is boring. It was exciting when I was a kid, but as I get older, I want something harder and that was what SCH was. It wasnt a brain dead "Just spam Cure and Holy trinity" type job, but one you actually had to consider if you wanted to be good at it. It was a "Easy to understand, hard to master" type job in 3.0. Ever since Stormblood, SE has been hellbent on making us WHM Lites and, I cant speak for everyone, thats not what us SCHs ever wanted.

[Hatstand]

As for me calling you a troll, I didn't wonder that because you disagree with me. I suspected that because a) you didn't seem to have read the things other SCH advocates have said (or perhaps you just misunderstood what was meant), which makes it seem like you're not arguing in good faith and b) calling your opponent a liar reduces the discussion to a name slinging fight, rather than a real debate. I am also guilty of this, so I apologize for that.

P.S. The reason I don't play a DPS instead is because I love the reactivity that is required to play a healer. Watching the health bars and making sure everyone stays up is my favorite part of the role. That doesn't mean I can't also enjoy the other parts of my role. The reason I'm complaining exclusively about the dps is that the healing still feels good.