Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

[Eyvind]

There are more???

Three known - the one from Seal Rock, the one from Ul'dah (claimed by Ascians the day Thancred and Minfilia met), and one on Tupismati which I believe is still in the WoL's bottomless backpack.

[Ilenya]

Three known - the one from Seal Rock, the one from Ul'dah (claimed by Ascians the day Thancred and Minfilia met), and one on Tupismati which I believe is still in the WoL's bottomless backpack.

Was the one from Ul'dah mentioned in the lorebook, or elsewhere? I know the Limsa 1.0 story centered around the Ascians getting that one, but I'm unsure about hearing of the Ul'dah one.

[dragoelete]

Kinda is worrying if our character’s amaroutine is the one that summoned Hydaelyn. To say nothing of the vast amount of potential blood on our hands, it would add a rather selfish motive that taints what we do.

not rlly... since hyd was summoned to stop the ascians from sacrificing the new life forms. that seems about the farthest away as you can get from selfish to me...

[Eyvind]

Was the one from Ul'dah mentioned in the lorebook, or elsewhere? I know the Limsa 1.0 story centered around the Ascians getting that one, but I'm unsure about hearing of the Ul'dah one.

Yep, it's in lorebook 1, page 78, the section entitled "Whither the Keys?" Basically, Minfilia's dad died to a raging Goobue...that much is well-known. But what sent the beast into a fury was a blast of powerful aether from the horn. Some idiot had taken it out of Ul'dah's vault and put it in the hands of a mammet on parade. Apparently they thought it would look impressive for the event. Now that it was out of the vault, an Ascian made off with it.

The lore book does not explicitly tie it to the primals the way the Limsa one is died directly to Titan and Leviathan, but I don't think the Amal'jaa were summoning Ifrit before the Ascians got their horn...

[QT_Melon]

not rlly... since hyd was summoned to stop the ascians from sacrificing the new life forms. that seems about the farthest away as you can get from selfish to me...

Nah I think the circumstances they were worried about. I think it makes a bit more sense narrative wise that the group sacrificed themselves and not others. I still feel the 14th may not have been the summon but the failsafe/witness in case something went wrong - especially since there was no telling if their will would work correctly. I mean after all there is that saying about insanity in repeating something and expecting different results. Sundering may have been an unexpected byproduct of all of it.

Obviously their race even admitted their creation magic has results they don't think of - so wouldn't it make sense to have someone outside the two summons to deal with the possibility of something unexpected happening?

[Ilenya]

The lore book does not explicitly tie it to the primals the way the Limsa one is died directly to Titan and Leviathan, but I don't think the Amal'jaa were summoning Ifrit before the Ascians got their horn...

This actually worries me a lot because we've *seen* one of the horns since ARR, and I thought that was the end of it. Now I get to panic all over again.

Used to power Alexander, in case anyone forgot

[MrThinker]

This actually worries me a lot because we've *seen* one of the horns since ARR, and I thought that was the end of it. Now I get to panic all over again.

Used to power Alexander, in case anyone forgot

also remember that

Paplymo used the horn of Tupsimati alongside his life to temporarily seal away Shinryu, after which we have no idea what happened to Tupsimati. I think the devs want us to think of it as destroyed, but they should really clear it up.

[Alleo]

Honestly both of you are wrong.

Zodiark stopped the cataclysm and then repaired the damage it wrought, i.e. rebuilt the cities but did not create new life. The new life first about came about via the surviving Amaurotians creation magic and any other life forms that survived the cataclysm and then spread around the planet naturally. After that Zodiark behaved as the primals do now, to devour aether and exist by any means necessary and as such demanded the aether of all new the life with a promise that was more likely a lie as the Amaurotian souls and their aether used to create him were gone. We even have examples of this on smaller scale creations as shown in the side quests and MSQ in Amaurot when an Amaurotian sacrifices their soul and aether for their creation, let alone the present examples of primals devouring souls. The non-tempered Amaurotines saw through this and summoned Hydaelyn to stop impending cataclysm that the tempered Amaurotians traded the last one for and to protect the new life from being devoured by Zodiark. Neither had anything do with life beyond that. As it is the Lifestream that dictates what happens to souls and their aether after death if it wasn't devoured, and which has always existed before and after the creation of Zodiark and Hydaelyn.

And yes it is out right stated that Amaurotians as a whole were functionally immortal and could only die via injury or if they gave up the life for a creation. Their aging likely stopped after reaching full maturity like Tolkien elves and what not.

He stopped the apocalypse then the remaining ancient ones saw that the planet was ruined anyway. Water was poisoned, the land was death and more. And this is why they sacrificed another round of souls so that he can restore the planet to how it was before. So this could of course include all the cities but why then not the animals too? Since as far as we know alot of these lifeforms were created by the ancient ones and sometimes even used to be turned into crystals.

We also do not know if he was truly hungry for aether and just seeminlgy forced the tempered Ascians for more sacrifice in the form of the promise of bringing back the rest. We imo simply cant use the workings of lower primals right now because these were beings on a whole other scale. (And the Ascian could have simply taught us a faulty version of the summoning, so that they will hurt the land) Maybe he needed constant aether or maybe all of this could have been avoided if the Ascians just moved on. I also still believe that they wanted to sacrifice future people to this. I somehow doubt that (if its even possible) Zodiark would accept common lifeforms in exchange for souls of beings that have such a huge amount of aether in them that they can create nearly everything with their mind. Seeing how the theme of the expansion was, that living in the past is bad and that one should walk towards a better future for others, I believe that they truly meant to sacrifice future people to get their friends and family back. Of course this could all change if we get the information that the other races existed along side the Ancient ones but did not have the power and they meant them for sacrifice (but than its still people). But as far as we know the ancient ones were the only ones that lived on that planet. And seeing how they saw creation (even creatures) just as some kind of experiment, well I am just not sure if they would be against using that to get their people back.

I mean they see us as not alive because of our imperfect souls..but we do have souls and even their emotions. How far lower would then even creatures be?

Kinda is worrying if our character’s amaroutine is the one that summoned Hydaelyn. To say nothing of the vast amount of potential blood on our hands, it would add a rather selfish motive that taints what we do.

And if the 14th was the one who summoned her, why does she have massive amount of blood on her or even our hands (because it was made quite clear that we are not the old person. We just have the soul) or why is it selfish? The Ancient ones sacrificed themselves willingly! They did that to ensure that others can survive. Emet even goes on and tries to talk our imperfect races down because he cant believe that our races would do such a selfless sacrifice. It would be strange if they talk about this in a way to show how good those were, if they only agreed to this if they are brought back. No I do believe that the story shows that they did that with the knowledge that they would be death.

It was the Ascians that stepped on their wishes for selfish reasons and tried to bring them back with massive amount of blood on their hands. It was them who started all of this splitting..if they had accepted their sacrifice then as far as we know all might have been well. But they did not accept it and planned to raise huge amount of lifes who are meant to be unwillingly sacrificed to bring the old ones back. Those that summoned Hydealyn probably did try to reason with them. (I mean the Ancient seemingly loved to discuss stuff x)) And in the end maybe this was the only way to stop this massacker of huge amount of new lifes. Since they were against sacrificing new life, they would surely not summon something that will need that life..so there is a huge chance that they only sacrificed their own lifes willingly to stop Zodiark and the Ascians and maybe the only way to stop him was to split him up. We have no idea if the split itself killed the new life but at the same time this kinda would not be possible, because if nothing is there anymore and they dont have the amount of creation magic nothing would have been there after the split, thus no new life. So they must have survived it in some ways.

Nah I think the circumstances they were worried about. I think it makes a bit more sense narrative wise that the group sacrificed themselves and not others. I still feel the 14th may not have been the summon but the failsafe/witness in case something went wrong - especially since there was no telling if their will would work correctly. I mean after all there is that saying about insanity in repeating something and expecting different results. Sundering may have been an unexpected byproduct of all of it.

Obviously their race even admitted their creation magic has results they don't think of - so wouldn't it make sense to have someone outside the two summons to deal with the possibility of something unexpected happening?

Hm maybe I remember it wrong, but wasnt it said that the summoners gave Hydealyn the ability to split the essence of every thing? Why would you give her something like that if you dont intent to use it?

[JeanneOrnitier]

so, /10char

If the red-masked Ascians are all soul sunders from the Convocation, what are black-masked Ascians?

[Cilia]

so, /10char

If the red-masked Ascians are all soul sunders from the Convocation, what are black-masked Ascians?

Red-masked Ascians are the Overlords, and likely encompass the members of the Conclave of Thirteen that summoned Zodiark. The three unbroken Ascians - Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch - possess the power to restore the broken Ascians by collecting their soul fragments, and all are capable of possessing living people (they just do so rarely, as it takes much more effort to wrest control of a body from a living soul than it does to possess a corpse). Their names are derived from the Scions of Light mentioned in the Espers' profiles in Final Fantasy XII.

Black-masked Ascians are underlings, normal people raised up to Ascian status by an Overlord. Unlike the Overlords, they cannot possess living beings and must use corpses as vessels. The four encountered in-game use the Lesser Arcana for their naming scheme.

Timeline cleanup:

1. The Ancients live in their utopian city of Amaurot practicing creation magicks.
2. The planet begins emanating a sound that drives those who hear it to madness. Though initially small-scale, it quickly grows into a global threat. Once it reaches Amaurot, the Ancients' creation magicks go wild and summon their nightmares (the "Final Days"), laying waste to the planet.
3. In order to put a stop to the destruction, half of the Ancients sacrifice themselves in order for the Convocation of Thirteen to summon Zodiark, the "will of the star." As they wished, he puts an end to the disturbance, but the planet is still devastated.
4. To repair the damage to the planet, another half of the Ancients sacrifice themselves to Zodiark in order to restore the planet.
5. It is proposed that the races of man that have begun to flourish be sacrificed to Zodiark in order to resurrect the Ancients that were sacrificed to him to save and restore the planet. However, for the first time in their history there is dissent among the Ancients - some are opposed to the idea and wish instead to protect the races of man from being used in this capacity, instead wanting them to inherit the planet.
6. The dissidents sacrifice themselves to summon Hydaelyn, the embodiment of their beliefs. As was their desire, she goes to war with Zodiark for the fate of man.
7. In order to win the conflict, Hydaelyn uses her power to break apart Zodiark into fourteen pieces, then casts him out as the moon. However, due to Zodiark being "the will of the star," this shatters the planet into fourteen alternate realities (the Source and the thirteen shards), along with every soul on it. Only three beings are known to have escaped this sundering - Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch. (And Hydaelyn.)
8. Still desiring to see their wishes fulfilled, the three remaining Ancients - now known as Ascians - begin their great work of rejoining the shards to the Source to resurrect Zodiark. To this end they make the other members of the Conclave recompleat, then after stumbling with the Thirteenth and turning it into the Void, begin manipulating events across the shards and Source to achieve this goal. Thus begins the cycle of Astral Eras, Umbral Calamities, and Umbral Eras on the Source.

Key details:

• What caused the sound that began destroying the planet and driving its inhabitants to madness is unknown.
• It is known that Zodiark tempered his summoners, which include at least the Conclave's thirteen (now known as the Ascians). Emet-Selch admits this if you speak to him immediately after he pulls Y'shtola out of the Lifestream in Rak'tika.
• It is not known if the idea to sacrifice the mortal races to Zodiark to resurrect the Ancients was something he proffered or if the Ancients came up with that idea on their own.
• It is not known if Zodiark could have resurrected the sacrificed Ancients. (Given his full power is far beyond even Hydaelyn, though... I'd wager he could really do it.)
• It is not known how many of the Ancients dissented with the decision to sacrifice the races of man to Zodiark.
• It is not known who the fourteenth member of the Conclave was, nor what became of them.