Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

[Nalien]

I must say, I love how we're right back on track with the "Final Fantasy VII is YoshiPs favorite Final Fantasy" fan service train with Shadowbringers, after Stormblood was fairly subtle in those allusions, not that they weren't there with 4.0, but they were much more minor and overall underwhelming IMO. 1.x gave us Nael doing his best Sephiroth impressions, 2.0 copied VIIs Ultima Weapon design, 3.0 gave us Knights of the Round, now we're back on track with Hades after 4.0s brief respite.

Goes much further though, the entire first half of Tempest brings to mind the City of the Ancients from VII, at least IMO, although Amaurot itself leans in a very different direction. Prior to the final dungeon, Emet does the Sephiroth-walk-through-fire (which I actually didn't like, given we'd already had Nael do that...), and the events surrounding The Final Days actually brings to mind the backstory of the Ancients in VII as well... Mysterious "noise" infecting the planet and terrifying the Ancients and causing their magic to run amok? Hopefully we're not dealing with space herpes here, but one can't help but note the frequency of meteor showers during The Final Days... Zodiark and Hydaelyn as a "solution" also strike me as a mirrored parallel to the White and Black Materia, respectively (Zodiark I feel having more in common with the White Materia than the Black you'd expect His Darkness to), although that's not a perfect comparison just due to the different nature of both games lore.

That's not to say we're only dealing with VII allusions though, I'd say there are plenty of VIII and IV peppered in there. Actually the entire Ancients/Zodiark plot seems reminiscent of IV IMO. The Ascians are Zemus, the Ancients who summoned Hydaelyn are Fusoya, and while the majority of the Ancients aren't slumbering away on the Moon, Zodiark is sealed away in/as the Moon, and his explicit purpose at this point is to screw over the current population of the planet in order to revive the 75% of the sacrificed Ancients population, so you could say those 75% are sleeping, and I'm fairly sure Hades even refers to them as slumbering... Heck, his whole design and fight is somewhat reminiscent of Zemus/Zeromus' design...

Moving forward though, I'd say we have even more VII in store with Zenos, who is pretty much just Sephiroth at this point, right? Long hair, messed up result of various experiments, thing for superior nippon steel, came back from the dead, killed the President of Shinra Varis, has set his goals on supping on Zodiarks aether to do battle with us next? Actually that last one has mean leaning towards more VIII, Zenos is going to need some way to access Zodiark for that plan, and I can't see him completing the remaining Rejoinings for that, which leaves him doing something to the Moon, much as the devs joke about us going to the Moon next, I can't actually see that happening... More likely I think we're going to see a Lunatic Pandora/Moons Tear style event, with Zenos ready to absorb whatever he cracks out of that egg... Actually that's a bit VII with Sephiroths whole plan of absorbing the Lifestream as well, come to think of it...

[Erendis]

Well, of course. Still it makes sense as the format for combining his name with his current title, so you can clearly refer to him without having to use "the Exarch" which is a bit impersonal. I'm starting to use it myself, if I want to refer to him by name but also need to identify him.

I prefer Crystal G'raha myself.

Anyway, anyone found out what do people on the first call the planet?

[Ilenya]

From when we were using white auracite previously to defeat Ascians, the auracite is used to trap the Ascian's soul while we obtain aether from a separate source to destroy it. So it's not quite a parallel use.

But the White Auracite (Yeah, I messed up on that name) can hold aether, which is why it trapped the Ascians. Why can't we put the light into it? We know from what little we are aware of from the Void that as a whole it's not the safest thing, but is it really less safe than having the WoL/D hold all of it?

now we're back on track with Hades after 4.0s brief respite.

Was I the only one who thought FFIX to that? I had forgotten Hades was a thing in FFVII.

...has set his goals on supping on Zodiarks aether to do battle with us next?...

Wait, who says he wants Zodiark? Hydaelyn is the one available to him, right? That'd be an amusing move, needing to get Zodiark back so we can actually fight a powered Zenos. I wonder how Elidibus would take that?

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Goes much further though, the entire first half of Tempest brings to mind the City of the Ancients from VII, at least IMO, although Amaurot itself leans in a very different direction. Prior to the final dungeon, Emet does the Sephiroth-walk-through-fire (which I actually didn't like, given we'd already had Nael do that...), and the events surrounding The Final Days actually brings to mind the backstory of the Ancients in VII as well... Mysterious "noise" infecting the planet and terrifying the Ancients and causing their magic to run amok? Hopefully we're not dealing with space herpes here, but one can't help but note the frequency of meteor showers during The Final Days... Zodiark and Hydaelyn as a "solution" also strike me as a mirrored parallel to the White and Black Materia, respectively (Zodiark I feel having more in common with the White Materia than the Black you'd expect His Darkness to), although that's not a perfect comparison just due to the different nature of both games lore.

That's not to say we're only dealing with VII allusions though, I'd say there are plenty of VIII and IV peppered in there. Actually the entire Ancients/Zodiark plot seems reminiscent of IV IMO. The Ascians are Zemus, the Ancients who summoned Hydaelyn are Fusoya, and while the majority of the Ancients aren't slumbering away on the Moon, Zodiark is sealed away in/as the Moon, and his explicit purpose at this point is to screw over the current population of the planet in order to revive the 75% of the sacrificed Ancients population, so you could say those 75% are sleeping, and I'm fairly sure Hades even refers to them as slumbering... Heck, his whole design and fight is somewhat reminiscent of Zemus/Zeromus' design...

I thought the Ascian's plan was closer to FFIX. Dead race tries to save itself at the cost of the world that came after. There's also the hypothesis that Hades was supposed to be FFIX's last boss instead of Necron.

Anyways, FF is very self-derivative at this point, and has been for years. To both its credit and detriment, Final Fantasy has a consistent set of themes and story-beats, and that was manifesting even before they began to self-reference out the wazoo (FFIX did it a fair bit as the "throwback" game, but it grew to be downright cynical imo by the time XIII rolled out).

[Theodric]

Wait, who says he wants Zodiark? Hydaelyn is the one available to him, right? That'd be an amusing move, needing to get Zodiark back so we can actually fight a powered Zenos. I wonder how Elidibus would take that?

Hydaelyn, eh?

Minfilia was referred to, for a time, as 'Word of the Mother' if I recall correctly. The use of 'Mother' would be interesting in the context of Zenos given that it would tie in well with how Sephiroth referred to Jenova...

...who is, in fact, a false deity just like Hydaelyn!

[Nalien]

Was I the only one who thought FFIX to that? I had forgotten Hades was a thing in FFVII.

Arguably he is more memorable in IX, although he is an optional boss right at the end but so was Shinryu. Honestly Hades was a completely forgettable summon in VII, I believe the most notable instance in the franchise is probably in XI, though regrettably I'd moved on from XI prior to Adoulin so I'm not remotely versed in that lore, just merely aware it was the final (?) boss.

Wait, who says he wants Zodiark? Hydaelyn is the one available to him, right? That'd be an amusing move, needing to get Zodiark back so we can actually fight a powered Zenos. I wonder how Elidibus would take that?

I had to rewatch it just to clarify, but he specifically says "We shall gorge upon their strength". That's perhaps the Royal We, in which case he intends to take Hydaelyn and Zodiark ("their") in the same manner he took Shinryu, or my initial interpretation was he'd give us Hydaelyn while he takes Zodiark, for a more entertaining hunt. Although you're absolutely right, it would be very amusing to reverse those roles...

I thought the Ascian's plan was closer to FFIX. Dead race tries to save itself at the cost of the world that came after. There's also the hypothesis that Hades was supposed to be FFIX's last boss instead of Necron.

Anyways, FF is very self-derivative at this point, and has been for years. To both its credit and detriment, Final Fantasy has a consistent set of themes and story-beats, and that was manifesting even before they began to self-reference out the wazoo (FFIX did it a fair bit as the "throwback" game, but it grew to be downright cynical imo by the time XIII rolled out).

I mean, the whole Terra/Gaia plot seemed derivative of IVs plot to me. Certainly some difference, which is actually why I lean towards IV with the Ascians at this point. IV had a schism between the Lunarians, much like the Ancients in XIV had with regards to Zodiark and Hydaelyn, and much like IV the plot is very much a clash between those beliefs. The Terrans in IX were much more autonomous in their goal.

[TankHunter678]

you could technically say the same of the voidsent cause you need both light AND dark to truly be termed as alive so that doesnt say anything...

Likely because when things go too far into the chaos of darkness every element that makes up a living organism loses its distinction and merges into one big mess. Whereas with the light everything stalls to the point the aether of the healing magic simply cannot treat it because the aether in the healing magic gets effected and comes to a standstill as well, or simply cannot accelerate whatever combination of elements is needed to repair the damage because the individual elements were rendered inert in terms of activity.

Which would likely explain why Sin Eaters hunt for the aether of living beings. They need regular intake of high activity aether in order to run. Otherwise they would eventually completely cease activity altogether. In the same healer role quest series it gets revealed that the Sin Eaters that can be healed are ones that were converted from other beings, which would suggest that they still retain a high enough level of active aether for healing magic to work on them.

[Cilia]

Jenova was never considered a deity. Due to her shapeshifting after Shinra excavated her (it?) from the North Crater Jenova was mistakenly believed to be an Ancient, but was never considered a deity. The only deity ever identified in VII is Minerva, the bonus boss of Crisis Core, and is a genuine deity.

Hades did first appear in VII as a summon, but his summon materia was located in a pretty out-of-the way location (Sunken Gelnika) and didn't deal a whole lot of damage for its MP cost (150 MP for middling damage but a lot of status effects), so a lot of people skipped him over and/or didn't use him often. His more memorable appearance was as a superboss in IX, as he had to be defeated to unlock the ultimate Synthesis Shop needed to craft some of the best equipment in the game (and, other than stealing them one at a time, was the only way to restock ethers). (Rumor has it he was originally intended to be the final boss.)

The Tempest just felt like an underwater area to me. Amaurot as a special subzone is closer to X's Dream Zanarkand than VII's City of the Ancients, albeit underwater. I will admit that Emet-Selch walking into flames was reminiscent of Sephiroth.

While VII does have some major beats in XIV (mostly in the form of the Meteor fiasco that closed out Legacy), the Ivalice titles clearly get a lot more love from the developers as far as references and influence goes (having an entire region of the world be an adaptation of it is particularly egregious, even compared to Meteor). The MSQ mostly sticks to its own themes and messages though.

[Iscah]

In the same healer role quest series it gets revealed that the Sin Eaters that can be healed are ones that were converted from other beings, which would suggest that they still retain a high enough level of active aether for healing magic to work on them.

I didn't get that impression from it at all. I took it that our healing magic doesn't work on sin eaters at all - but Lamitt's does, and she's only choosing to heal those specific ex-people.

She's specifically focused on those who were the exiled dwarves she once cured, not just any people.

[Ilenya]

Hades did first appear in VII as a summon, but his summon materia was located in a pretty out-of-the way location (Sunken Gelnika) and didn't deal a whole lot of damage for its MP cost (150 MP for middling damage but a lot of status effects), so a lot of people skipped him over and/or didn't use him often. His more memorable appearance was as a superboss in IX, as he had to be defeated to unlock the ultimate Synthesis Shop needed to craft some of the best equipment in the game (and, other than stealing them one at a time, was the only way to restock ethers). (Rumor has it he was originally intended to be the final boss.)

I only remember Hades in FFVII because he makes a glorious match with Added Effect in your weapon.