Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

[Ilenya]

Are they the same? Hydaelyn's summoning is kind of an enigma, since a primal summoned with such a small fraction of the population(~12% if we're being generous and assuming it was an even divide) should be no match for one summoned with 50% and then fed half of the remaining population, but she was strong enough to overpower Zodiark, imprison him, shatter reality, and supplant him.

It's also an extremely minor thing, but I kind of want to know how Elidibus, Hades, and Lahabrea managed to escape being sundered unlike the other 11 members of the Convocation.

By the math, 50% to summon Zodiark, who managed to stop the Calamity. 50% of the remainder (25%) used to fix the world/star. My guess, Hydaelyn had more aether than Zodiark did because Zodiark would have just finished his second miracle and been drained, while Hydaelyn would have been freshly summoned regardless on how many were sacrificed for it.

[Daralii]

We already had this narrative with Nidhogg, we feel for him, but we know him to be wrong. Why would they repeat an angle like that ? "That dude is wrong...but wait here's some background info ! Guess what ? He's still wrong !" This is so overplayed everywhere.

And same as with Nidhogg that's what I felt first, it's after thinking about all we learned that I thought he was right.

No need to apologize.

Because it's an extremely effective narrative device. There's a reason why clashes based on ideals and morality are present in every form of media and have been for about as long as stories have existed.

[QT_Melon]

Because it's an extremely effective narrative device. There's a reason why clashes based on ideals and morality are present in every form of media and have been for about as long as stories have existed.

Well of course. But at the same time people are highly acclaiming those that are able to break the same kinds of narrative. It's not like the hero's monomyth is totally destroyed here :P

I mean we are talking about the scenario writer for the DRK storyline

[Alleo]

Let's forget what happens in the present, let's go back to the time of the Ancients for a second, this is where it all started.

-First of all as much as a lot of people seem to want that to be true : We have no definite proof that it was there Creation Magick that started the Sound from beneath the earth. Every info we get on that front (even from Y'shtola) point to the fact that their Art wasn't affecting the land's aether. And the Sound made them unable to control their Creation Magick (this is what we learn, no speculation), the Calamity isn't their fault since it was out of their control.

-After the deed of summoning Zodiark (willing sacrifice of 50% pop), they saw that the Planet even if saved from the Calamity was still dying and 50% of the remaining population willingly sacrificed themselves to save the Planet. (They saved it 2 times for anyone who's keeping scores)

Then the problems arose with one side wanting to resurrect the sacrifices and one side wanting to let the Planet to the "new lives".

Let's look at the two sides, one at a time :
"Zodiark's side" :
-To begin with, to the people talking about "letting go of the past", I'm pretty sure the decision to resurrect the sacrifices was made not too long after the Calamity, so "letting go of the past" when it's probably not even been a month or two is a pretty bad argument if you ask me. ("Hey all your family/friends died a week ago, just let it go already!").
-And am I the only one who had a different interpretation than a lot of people here when they talked about bringing back their friends ? Hythlodaeus said that they would "nurture life" and offer a portion of its living energy to Zodiark...How is this different than a farmer cultivating his soils/animals for harvest and then consumption ? The only big difference is that Zodiark will bring back people while we will just produce poop. They didn't say that they would destroy the fucking Planet to bring their people back. They don't even have to bring them back all in one go. After that they can continue to nurture life ad infinitum. I would also like to point out that it was them who created most lifeforms on the Planet to begin with.

"Hydaelyn's side" :
-Wants to let the new lives rules the Planet but there is the question of what were this life forms anyway ? Are they the ones that already existed when the Ancients were "in power" but were saved by Zodiark ? Because I'm pretty sure that doesn't qualify as new and that most of them were even created by the Ancients, so there point is moot on that front. We are lacking critical information on this.
-By splitting the Original Planet into 14, they basically destroyed this Original Planet so it's not even the new lives that are ruling since it's "new lives but 14th times weaker than what they were suppose to be" imo. (that's 2 saves for Zodiark and 1 K.O. for Hydaelyn for people keeping scores)

At this point wouldn't this qualify as an act of war against the Council (their government, so it was treason in a sense) ? And since they are pretty much immortals you could say that they are still at war with Hydaelyn. Making them fighting the good fight.

And to finish on a really good bit, I'd like to point out again that the Ancients are born with the ability to use Creation Magick and I saw people said that because the Calamity could happen again, we can't let them live the way they are. Are those people really suggesting to genocide an entire people because of the way they are born and what might happen ? Is this really what you want to go with when defending the summoning of the "good" Hydaelyn ? Are you sure ?

So no, I don't think Hydaelyn is good because the people who summoned her were, imo, wrong.

I think the Ascians are right in what they are doing but we are also right in stopping them (not for Hydaelyn though), we just happened to win.

We gonna get rid of Hydaelyn and Zodiark, then we will tackle what really caused the First Calamity.

About your post:

Yes there is no 100% proof that the sound itself had anything to do with them but isnt it strange that they tell us that they got the feeling that the planet was giving up? Of course this could be some kind of other enemy or its as simply as: the planet was dieying because that whats planets do after some huge time of being alive. Ysthola is also only having theories and we do know that the scions are not always right. It could be that their own aether was enough to use for every single creation they did but at the same time they do say that sometimes projects are too much for the person so they can turn their idea in for others to try and that one NPC in the quest was only surprised that we seemingly have no talent for creation magic in us, so having people will lower amounts seems to be quite possible. Amaurot was only the capitol of the planet, how would they truly know what all the others did outside of it? Maybe some did need the aether of the land because its own was too low. And since they are immortal in a way this could have been happening slowly over a huge amount of time. In the end their use of the magic was their downfall. Emet himself states that their fear made them create even more monsters. Just a slight slip of concentration can have bad outcomes. And yet even though they are such powerful beings they also run away in panic as soon as some of their monsters break out (see the 80 dungeon for that)

Your point is also just pure speculation. For new life to already be there after such events, there had to be at least some times to go by. But in the end no matter what amount of time has passed, they had done their decision with the knowledge that people need to die. And those people seemingly sacrificed themselves for it willingly. Doing that but then not being fine with it afterwards just shows some true character of these in charge.

Also it was made clear that Zodiark consumed the souls of the Ancient ones to have enough power to act. I really doubt that they just needed animals to redo that and I also doubt that any of the ones left would be against that since most of these animals seemed to have been a creation anyway. No they talk about their own race. The only race on the planet with enough aether to even give him enough back to release these souls. Thats why they were so angry and decided to go against their own kind. They did not want the death of their future generation. Emet even points out that to bring back these people after Zodiark is awake they will sacrifice everyone living on the source. So yes they mean people with that and at that time these were still with complete souls.

Hydealyn was summoned to protect their new generation. I am not sure why you believe that the ancient ones would do something like that to save animals? No its about their people that started to increase again after the planet was saved. And seemingly as far as we know, the only way to save them at least in some way they thougth it would be better to split and seal Zodiark, thus split everything else too. The planet is also still there, its the source. It did not grow any bigger after the calamites (as far as we know) so no that planet is still there. Its just that every essence is split apart. But these are still alive. These can still live their life. With Zodiark they would be death.

And seeing how it was Ancient ones that summoned her, its not really that strange to think that they might have seen the split of their power as the best solution for their race. Maybe they saw what their power can do. And in the end it would have been the Ascian that partially would have used genocide against the future generations to bring back those that are death. Its also them that seemingly cant accept that we are life too. The ancient ones live on, just in a different form.

[Cilia]

On themes -

The main theme of XIV, so far, has been letting go of the past to make a brighter future. Every major antagonist has something in their past they simply can't let go of, and it drags down others; they all live in the past, while the protagonists fight to make a better future.

• Garlean Empire: pugnaciously attacks other nations due to their mistreatment centuries ago instead of letting go and becoming a constructive member of the international community.
• Nidhogg: eternally attacks Ishgard for Ratatoskr's murder instead of letting go, to the point he practically emulates the Ascians and becomes a spirit possessing a mortal.
• Archbishop Thordan: refuses to let go of Ishgardian history and traditions after Nidhogg's initial defeat.
• Ilberd: refuses to let go of Ala Mhigo, dragging half the world into a war to liberate it whether they will it or no.
• Yotsuyu: refuses to forgive Doman culture for giving her a bad shake.
• Vauthry: refuses to give up his self-indulgent paradise, fleeing to make a new one after losing control of Eulmore.
• Ascians: refuse to let go of the memory of Amaurot, willing to sacrifice the entirety of mortal life to bring back their civilization.

About the only one that doesn't qualify is Zenos, and he's a sociopathic killer.

It's also well-demonstrated with Thancred and Ran'jit's differing attitudes toward "Minfilia;" while the former eventually lets go of "his" Minfilia and acknowledges Ryne has value as her own person, Ran'jit refuses to do the same.

This really comes to a head during final fight with Emet-Selch / Hades. While the Scions' attacks don't even faze him, the following exchange does get a rise out of him (paraphrased):

Urianger: To make the best of all futures... be this not also thy purpose?!
Emet-Selch: Do not presume to speak of my future!

... and finally the Warrior of [Light/Darkness] and Ardbert's line to him right before the showdown:

Ardbert / PC: This world is not yours to end... This is our future. Our story.

To the point, Emet-Selch refuses to let go of the past, going so far as to make an illusory replica of it to live in. He literally lives in the past. Again, nearly every villain (or antagonist, if you must force the distinction) does something similar, while they're usually juxtaposed with someone who has or does let go of the past and is happier for it (Eorzeans put aside their differences to make a better future for the entire region, Hraesvelgr lets go of his hatred and despair of mortals to make a happier future for man and dragon alike, Aymeric exposes the truth and passes reforms that shake Ishgard to its core but ultimately leave it a better place, Hien willingly floods Doma Castle to free it from Imperial tyranny, etc.). While the villains do have sympathetic motives for their actions, they are all ultimately trapped in the past; the heroes conversely fight for the sake of the future, and the villains who do let go of the past in their dying moments are easily the most sympathetic (Yotsuyu, Emet-Selch).

This ties back to Hydaelyn - she does not exist to determine or dictate humanity's future. She exists to make sure humanity has a future that doesn't involve becoming Zodiark chow, not what that future will be.

So the "Reins of history in the hands of man!" shtick people love to use when justifying deicide in Final Fantasy doesn't really apply to Hydaelyn. She also seems to be unsummoned (residing in the aetherial plane), so she's no danger to the world.

Ultimately there is no reason to call for Hydaelyn's death, since she is benign at worst. Hydaelyn is the legacy of the ancients who wished to give the races of man a bright future; to say she should be killed for the sake of man's future is... disrespectful and conterproductive, I think.

Zenos trying to hijack her and/or Zodiark's fragments for power notwithstanding.

[dragonflie]

Just had a though about Minfillia the other day

But since OG Minfillia is from the Source, I wonder if Ryne was her soul's shard of the First. And since it's implied that they fused, then Ryne could be now just as whole (8/14 or 9/14) as our champion.

[CaesarCV]

Fantastic Post

Amazing post! You put it so eloquently!

[QT_Melon]

On themes -

The main theme of XIV, so far, has been letting go of the past to make a brighter future. Every major antagonist has something in their past they simply can't let go of, and it drags down others; they all live in the past, while the protagonists fight to make a better future.


This ties back to Hydaelyn - she does not exist to determine or dictate humanity's future. She exists to make sure humanity has a future that doesn't involve becoming Zodiark chow, not what that future will be.

So the "Reins of history in the hands of man!" shtick people love to use when justifying deicide in Final Fantasy doesn't really apply to Hydaelyn. She also seems to be unsummoned (residing in the aetherial plane), so she's no danger to the world.

Ultimately there is no reason to call for Hydaelyn's death, since she is benign at worst. Hydaelyn is the legacy of the ancients who wished to give the races of man a bright future; to say she should be killed for the sake of man's future is... disrespectful and conterproductive, I think.

I'm sorry...but did you say "Brighter future?"

I think it's important to note the Elemental chart is EXTREMELY important since the revelation is Light is not Life.
It's the opposite.

Hydadelyn is Light aspected. Zodiark is Dark Aspected

But Light is devoid of Life because it contains none of the elements that make up life.
Dark is all the elements that make up life.

Also I don't see it stated anywhere but please link to resources because I've been combing back and forth on this - did it say that they specifically summoned Hydaelyn for a better future.

She was specifically stated to have been summoned as a counterpart/failsafe and checkpoint.



She even reiterates this. Saying that both lived in "harmony" though she's speaking passively since her aspect is passive and pure. That is the nature of her being a primal she isn't ACTIVE like Zodiark, she REACTED when she felt Zodiark asking for power.

Even her method is passive. She didn't outright destroy him, she shattered him and reality. She never CREATED.

The Umbral Calamity is a LIGHT calamity (Since Umbral = Light) Astral = Dark. Every calamity labeled Umbral is a calamity of stillness....

Stillness is also what BLACK ROSE is. It's a light aspected death. It's purest form is the lack of life.

Her mission was the same, she always told you the WARRIOR of LIGHT to BANISH the DARKNESS. Darkness is Life.

Yes the Ascians are tempered and are gonna revere Zodiark because they saved them from a calamity and the nature of summoning primals is just that. We can't be tempered by Hydaeyln unless the ones that are not sundered are are around who summoned her. She split everyone apart. It seems good in theory. But you can't overlook her very nature even if it's "nice" She can't create new life. Only dark aspected creatures can. If we do not have a Darkness aspected primal equal to her to keep her in check, yes as benign as she seems, it means too much Light aspect and therefore the eventual end of ALL life because we do not carry enough darkness. This is why BOTH primals are bad regardless of who has the upper hand at the moment.

But I mean if you guys want to ignore what the elemental chart and supporting evidence is out there, you're welcome to because themes and all...

[dragoelete]

just cause hyd is a light aspected primal doesnt mean she is everything that is aspected to light... just look at the way they are zod was summoned to keep life as it is (which is stasis) while hyd was summoned to allow new life to live(which is activity)

[Dualblade]

Honestly if we were to go with the SMT/DnD Hydaelyn would be Neutral with tendancy towards Law (for SMT)/Lawful Good, while Zodiark would be full Law (SMT)/Lawful Neutral based on what we know. Presuming Zodiark isn't commanding the Ascians to go out and cause all these Calamities at least, again we have to actually meet him to know what exactly it wants.