The DPS is not the Healer

[CazzT]

Entitled tank and healer mentality, right here. It's a decision for the group, not the tank and / or healer. Tanks and healers are not special snowflakes, and they do not get more privileges than DPS players.

In what way is it entitled? The DPS have minimal, if any, relevance to whether or not to do big pulls. I've done big pulls where the DPS died and it was just me and the Healer and we killed the pull before the DPS got back from their corpse run. Why would I give any weight to that role's input when they have such trivial impact on the outcome? That's not entitled, that's just reality.

[Kaethra]

In what way is it entitled? The DPS have minimal, if any, relevance to whether or not to do big pulls. I've done big pulls where the DPS died and it was just me and the Healer and we killed the pull before the DPS got back from their corpse run. Why would I give any weight to that role's input when they have such trivial impact on the outcome? That's not entitled, that's just reality.

Because the DPS get a say in who can remain in the dungeon if they are of like mind. There's no reason to even push it that far. We all like quick runs where everyone is happy right? I know when I run with a friend of mine, even though we're half the group, we still see where the other members stand.

The reason for this is we want a smooth run. Smooth runs are fast. And if everyone is good with big pulls, we pull them. If not, we size it down. I never understood why everyone needs to take extremist positions. Everyone devolves into two camps. Pull big or go home, or always take it nice and slow. How about this novel idea? Work as a team.

[Eli85]

I don't see how it's entitled at all. You'll be spamming AOE on a small pack of three or four, and things will only go faster on a larger pull. DPS literally have no reason to be considered in this decision.

In what way is it entitled? The DPS have minimal, if any, relevance to whether or not to do big pulls. I've done big pulls where the DPS died and it was just me and the Healer and we killed the pull before the DPS got back from their corpse run. Why would I give any weight to that role's input when they have such trivial impact on the outcome? That's not entitled, that's just reality.

Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

[CazzT]

Because the DPS get a say in who can remain in the dungeon if they are of like mind.

Please show me a DPS that is going to initiate a kick because the tank is doing big pulls. There isn't one. But I do like how you completely ignored the part where I talk about me and a healer handling the pull without DPS even being there to contribute.

There's no reason to even push it that far.

Then why are you bringing it up? More to the point, it would never even get that far anyway, because DPS wouldn't complain about bigger pulls.

The reason for this is we want a smooth run. Smooth runs are fast. And if everyone is good with big pulls, we pull them. If not, we size it down. I never understood why everyone needs to take extremist positions. Everyone devolves into two camps. Pull big or go home, or always take it nice and slow. How about this novel idea? Work as a team.

I adjust pulls based on two factors. 1 - Can the Healer handle keeping me alive? 2 - How well do I know the trash, and does the trash have any special mechanics that need to be handled? Neither of those require input from DPS. The DPS could be dead and it just be me the Healer and the pull would simply die slower.

Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

As I pointed out above, show me even a single DPS that will initiate a kick because of bigger pulls. They don't exist. And you also ignored the fact that I have done big pulls where the DPS died and contributed nothing to pull and it still died. Why should a role that has so little impact have any input? That's like asking the janitor his opinion on a multi-million dollar company merger.

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

You can stop with the projection. DPS is one of the least important roles in regards to trash pulls. Your role on bosses is important. You want to feel special in matters where your role doesn't.

[Nedkel]

Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

Technically they could.
Kick takes only 2 to kick someone. xD

[Fynlar]

In what way is it entitled? The DPS have minimal, if any, relevance to whether or not to do big pulls. I've done big pulls where the DPS died and it was just me and the Healer and we killed the pull before the DPS got back from their corpse run. Why would I give any weight to that role's input when they have such trivial impact on the outcome? That's not entitled, that's just reality.

In my experience tanking, low/dead DPS on a big pull (or more typically, DPS that steadfastly refuse to use AoEs even when up against a dozen targets or so) usually means I run out of cooldowns + the healer eventually runs dry on MP trying to keep my sorry butt alive. I've been in the healer position on this before too, when I'd have to spam Cure 2 on the tank or else they would die. That's not a thing I can keep up doing for very long.

I can't help but feel like you're referring to certain 50/60/70 dungeons that can be vastly outgeared and where a tank+healer can actually keep themselves afloat on a big pull, but most dungeons are not like those.

[CazzT]

In my experience tanking, low/dead DPS on a big pull (or more typically, DPS that steadfastly refuse to use AoEs even when up against a dozen targets or so) usually means I run out of cooldowns + the healer eventually runs dry on MP trying to keep my sorry butt alive. I've been in the healer position on this before too, when I'd have to spam Cure 2 on the tank or else they would die. That's not a thing I can keep up doing for very long.

I can't help but feel like you're referring to certain 50/60/70 dungeons that can be vastly outgeared and where a tank+healer can actually keep themselves afloat on a big pull, but most dungeons are not like those.

It can't be done frequently in current content, it does take amazing Tank/Healer player synergy and beautiful use of cooldowns. Not gonna lie, though, this is not a common occurrence. When it does happen, it feels amazing.

[Kaethra]

Please show me a DPS that is going to initiate a kick because the tank is doing big pulls.

If you were on my dataserver I'd show you. But currently due to forum TOS I cannot post names. We'll just say I know a few. As others said, it only takes 2 to kick. So the DPS are very much relevant to the discussion as they comprise of at least two people. You say you can do a dungeon without them, but I doubt that is true if you're not in the dungeon anymore to begin with.

As I said, there's no reason to even push it that far.

[Eli85]

As I pointed out above, show me even a single DPS that will initiate a kick because of bigger pulls. They don't exist. And you also ignored the fact that I have done big pulls where the DPS died and contributed nothing to pull and it still died. Why should a role that has so little impact have any input? That's like asking the janitor his opinion on a multi-million dollar company merger.

You can stop with the projection. DPS is one of the least important roles in regards to trash pulls. Your role on bosses is important. You want to feel special in matters where your role doesn't.

Everything you wrote here just screams entitlement. Do I, as a DPS player, want to feel special in matters where my role doesn't? No. I'd say the same thing if I was tanking or healing. How the group is going to proceed, the pacing, is a role agnostic consideration. The fact that you happened to queue up as a healer or tank does not permit you to tell 3/4 of the group what to do.

[Videra]

Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

I mean that is, quite literally, how it works. The dungeon would be going nowhere if I didn't set the pace. That's a part of the role, not some form of 'entitlement' you absolute goon. If you as a DPS take issue with me doing big pulls, deal with it. I'm going to mention here that I regularly play all three roles, and I see no reason a DPS would ask someone -not- to do large pulls. That mindset simply does not exist.