An arguement towards having Healing on DPS

[Jandor]

The only serviceable, spammable heal on that list is Vercure, which I strongly believe was included only so that RDM could lay claim to an iconic White Magic Cure and so that they had a self-targeting spell to set up Dual Cast during phase transitions.

Paladin's clemency is servicable and spammable.

[Cynfael]

Paladin's clemency is servicable and spammable.

IIRC it has MP limitations that somewhat mitigate its spam potential. It also tends to be abused by backseat-healing tanks, like Vercure by RDMs of a similar mindset.

Well then if the first half is too repetitive, please address the second:


Because the burden of proof lies on the accuser, and "a relevant number of RDMs are fooled into full-healing outside of emergencies by the presence of Vercure" is not something I can say to be universally true based on experience.

I'm not sure how taking a stance in this discussion makes me an "accuser", but sure.... You continue to deconstruct my writing and make strawmen out of it: I didn't claim that there were RDMs healing full-time all over the place. What I said was that I've observed many RDMs stopping DPS to heal unnecessarily. Perhaps it's our respective definitions of "unnecessary" healing that differ?

In any case it comes down to your experience versus mine, which is a wash, because neither of us can provide hard evidence, as is usually the case when we're speaking anecdotally.

[Archwizard]

I'm not sure how taking a stance in this discussion makes me an "accuser", but sure.... You continue to deconstruct my writing and make strawmen out of it

I'm pointing out the logical flaws in your generalized arguments by providing examples that the same logic could be used to justify anything, and you're simply being selective for reasons you won't explain.

I didn't claim that there were RDMs healing full-time all over the place.

No, but you did state "you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing."

I've been trying to get you to explain this statement -- how many RDMs do so, for clarity? -- preferably with some kind of tangible evidence or common knowledge, because as far as I can tell, there's no epidemic of RDMs trying to make their way as core healers. A handful of players stopping to throw out a heal on occasion is not a flaw of the job, it's just people throwing out unnecessary heals, like if a healer wasted a cooldown. But you continue to speak like it's a design flaw that they can.

But as you state, it can only be backed anecdotally, which makes it something of an irrelevant justification, and thus removes the weight from your argument.

[Cynfael]

I'm pointing out the logical flaws in your generalized arguments by providing examples that the same logic could be used to justify anything, and you're simply being selective for reasons you won't explain.



No, but you did state "you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing."

I've been trying to get you to explain this statement -- how many RDMs do so, for clarity? -- preferably with some kind of tangible evidence or common knowledge, because as far as I can tell, there's no epidemic of RDMs trying to make their way as core healers. A handful of players stopping to throw out a heal on occasion is not a flaw of the job, it's just people throwing out unnecessary heals, like if a healer wasted a cooldown. But you continue to speak like it's a design flaw that they can.

But as you state, it can only be backed anecdotally, which makes it something of an irrelevant justification, and thus removes the weight from your argument.

Maybe there's someone else here with the patience to point out the issues with your counter-arguments, because each time I try I get more sophistry. Having a game mechanics discussion can be fun, but there's nothing new being discussed by this point. When you're asking me in apparent seriousness exactly how many RDMs I've seen use Vercure unnecessarily (and attempting to dismiss my arguments because I didn't keep tally marks on a notepad next to my desk), that's a sign that the conversation is getting a bit absurd, especially since you offer no objective evidence of your own. Also bears mentioning one more time that I never suggested that RDMs were running around being full-time healers.

I disagree what I think your position is; you disagree with what you think mine is. That works for me.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

Then you're missing the forest for the trees. I don't care about the precise tally (I wouldn't be pedantic if you'd ballparked it), I just want you to explain what experiences shaped this view.

You stated "just look how many RDMs misuse Vercure to see why I wouldn't want that."
My answer to that has been "Alright I've looked, none or not a significant number that I've seen, how about you?"
You've formed no rebuttal, and just claimed I was being absurd. In fact, including the other thread, more of your responses have been along the lines of "I don't have the patience to explain why you're wrong" than actually defending your stance.

You're posing a hypothetical as a fact that you are choosing not to defend, yet claiming sophistry on my part for asking you to defend or even explain that stance in any subjective or objective sense.
I'm calling BS 'cuz I wouldn't want to see SMN and BLM limited because you may have seen a couple RDMs throw out a cautionary Vercure during a roulette when the healer was doing fine.
I won't accept "agree to disagree" 'cuz these are not equal things -- your 'opinion' or 'one-off experience' should not determine a job design, especially when you imply it's worse than it really is.

'Cuz as it stands, on the subject of RDMs using Vercure unnecessarily:
Is it a rampant issue? We can only speak from our subjective experiences, but I've yet to see it and you've yet to give a determinate value here. We've already agreed there's no obvious epidemic of RDMs trying to heal full-time as a result though.
Is it a uniquely problematic design that shouldn't be extended to others? No more catastrophic for group healing than a healer wasting a cooldown or for group DPS than the RDM not using their proper rotation. Mistakes happen, especially when people are new to their job; in any other case we'd say let them make them so they can learn.
Do the negatives outweigh the positives? Well without a determinate value for how often it occurs we can't say definitively, particularly without a declaration of what 'negative' precisely is which you also choose not to give. I would argue that the ability to heal others is already part of their intended utility, and the ability to heal themselves has numerous benefits outside and a niche within group play; going back to the discussion of Physick, I would also point out that making it relevant would counter an existing, notorious example of ability bloat.
If the argument is that a DPS having healing in general is "a problem," then we're just having a circular argument since that's exactly the subject of the debate, but we've also shown that BLM is rather the exception here on the grounds of self-healing. If the argument is that you just don't want to see DPS throwing out heals 'cuz it's not their job and that RDM's only an exception because of flavor and gaming Dualcast, I've already explained that hybridization is an inherent part of RPG design even within Holy Trinities, with specific examples in XIV that show RDM is not "the exception" but an sample of the rule, and that's also a subjective argument aside.
So where's the problem, officer? What grounds are we using to say it's bad enough for RDMs with Vercure that SMN shouldn't have a decent Physick, let alone giving BLM their own spammable self-heal they can't use on others anyway?

You claimed it's a problem. The onus is on you to prove it, before anyone else should have to dispute it.

[Gallus]

I ignore every single post that has anything to do with complaints regarding Physick or Titan Egi.

Like, can you imagine having an absolute mess of a rotation with 17 millions of OGCDs giving you carpal tunnel leading to something that is not edible in the slightest and having people complain about physick?

[Archwizard]

I ignore every single post that has anything to do with complaints regarding Physick or Titan Egi.

Like, can you imagine having an absolute mess of a rotation with 17 millions of OGCDs giving you carpal tunnel leading to something that is not edible in the slightest and having people complain about physick?

One being an issue doesn't preclude the other also being an issue. You're allowed your priorities but it doesn't make others' complaints any less valid.

[Jandor]

IIRC it has MP limitations that somewhat mitigate its spam potential. It also tends to be abused by backseat-healing tanks, like Vercure by RDMs of a similar mindset.

2000MP & 1200 potency, 1800 potency under Requiescat. Can be used 5 times in a row. Heals you for half the HP restored if cast on someone else.

I'm not 100% sure but I think Requiescat Clemency might be the best heal in game, at least in terms of how much raw HP is restored per MP spent.

[Cynfael]

2000MP & 1200 potency, 1800 potency under Requiescat. Can be used 5 times in a row. Heals you for half the HP restored if cast on someone else.

I'm not 100% sure but I think Requiescat Clemency might be the best heal in game, at least in terms of how much raw HP is restored per MP spent.

It's definitely good, just comes with a very steep MP cost. Of course, it also interacts with Divine Veil, letting the PLD self-activate if necessary, and the healing generates at least some enmity as a byproduct, so it has additional uses.