An arguement towards having Healing on DPS

[Kabooa]

A sacrifice i actually don't mind taking. saved me from wasting a Healer's res

And frankly, that's a good trade off.

Kind of wish trade offs weren't so heavily disfavored all around.

[Archwizard]

And frankly, that's a good trade off.

Kind of wish trade offs weren't so heavily disfavored all around.

I agree. I'm totally fine with giving DPS options to trade damage for survivability or utility on-the-fly, particularly when the trade has potential for higher output in the long run (such as, say, reviving another DPS, preventing yourself from dying, spending a charge on a burst CD for a vulnerability debuff, etc).

Yet when we say "why not give BLMs a stronger version of Drain, as a backup to Manaward", one of the more common responses is to try and swap that option for a CD like Second Wind or Bloodbath... so there's no trade-off.
Nevermind that Manaward itself represents the "no trade" option...

[Cynfael]

OP's saying what I've been saying for a month now.

Sure, Drain as it was in SB was crap, nobody's disputing that -- literally every time the mention of returning Drain to BLM comes up, the word "buffed" is liberally sprinkled in.
"But they could have just buffed it before!" Not really, when you remember it was a role action available to leveling ACNs and Ruin was only 20 potency higher. Limiting it to one job is the best thing that could ever happen to Drain.
We don't even want it to be something to replace having a healer, we just want something to sustain ourselves when we don't have a pocket healer.



No you're right, just SMN and (iirc) a couple DoWs.
Who also have heals.

And I mean c'mon, RDMs jump into melee, I wouldn't be surprised if they get one next Xpac.



K mate I'm gonna have to get real with you for a minute: How often have you actually seen that?

Because I literally never have, and as a RDM main I'm constantly looking at other RDMs I party with to see how I compare.
Throughout Stormblood I've seen one RDM do a rotation of fullcast VAero -> dual VThunder -> fullcast VStone -> dual VFire, and I've seen a handful use Scatter in single-target.
I've even encountered one who claimed they couldn't cast Verraise 'cuz Swiftcast was on CD.

What I've never seen is a RDM drop everything to Vercure the tanks and other DPS during a bossfight, unless either the healers were down/recovering/useless (where I've been that guy), or they needed a Dualcast proc.
So if you've seen that more than like, twice? Then you're probably consistently grouping with some bad players. On the whole, most of the RDM players I meet tend to at least understand that their role is to kill things, given the big red sword icon that comes up when they queue for anything.

Furthermore: Your argument only carries over to not allowing Physick to be Int-based to prevent them from doing the healer's job, not to disallowing BLMs to self-heal (hell, you yourself said "nothing wrong with non-healers having emergency heals").
Also also: Your argument is at the precipice of a slippery slope. The same logic could be applied to removing barrier skills from DPS since they don't tank, for instance, and would serve to fortify arguments against returning Apocatastasis and Erase to casters.

Edit for clarity: Emergency means emergency. Vercure is an exception in that it is an emergency utility that is available on-demand on the GCD.

Barrier skills on DPS fall under the "emergency" category and don't affect enmity generation. Apples and oranges. No slippery slope in danger of being navigated.

Yes, I've seen plenty of bad RDMs since their release.

[Archwizard]

Edit for clarity: Emergency means emergency. Vercure is an exception in that it is an emergency utility that is available on-demand on the GCD.

Barrier skills on DPS fall under the "emergency" category and don't affect enmity generation. Apples and oranges. No slippery slope in danger of being navigated.

Yes, I've seen plenty of bad RDMs since their release.

It's not apples and oranges at all -- your argument was that players would use the tools outside of their role to attempt to do the job of other roles (as Vercure/raise allows RDM to dip into group healing).
At their most efficient use, barrier skills are often utilized by DPS to soak damage-heavy mechanics, and in extreme cases they have been popped to give a high-aggro DPS some time to hold the boss until a tank is revived. Hell, two of those mDPS have stances that give them low but indefinite mitigation at a damage loss, while SMN's use of Titan-Egi has always been affiliated with some minor form of tanking. Those are cases where DPS explicitly hybridize into tanking roles.
And as I also stated, effects like Apocatastasis and Erase allowed all caster DPS including BLMs to perform a healing role in a minor capacity -- Erase itself was even a priority over Esuna in some cases, given that it was free and oGCD.
So it's very curious to me that your position is specifically in naming every other edge case an "exception" specifically to disallow SMN from having a viable Physick effect, or BLM from a spammable self-healing effect.

Furthermore, the question wasn't "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen," it was "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen ignore their responsibilities as a DPS for extended periods in order to do the incumbent healer's job?"
One or two? Five to ten? Dozens? Hundreds?
Because your argument hinges on a grand number of new players specifically using their late, singular healing ability to attempt to perform an entire other role from a DPS position at a meaningful level, and I find it hard to believe you've seen such an extreme number of confused new players as to justify not giving any more non-emergency healing skills to other jobs -- or in this case with Physick, to justify not buffing an existing skill which, if you were right, would already be subject to exactly the same confusion even after Sastasha.

It reads to me like you saw it happen a couple times and generalized it, instead of just telling them to DPS and let the healers do their job.

[Cynfael]

It's not apples and oranges at all -- your argument was that players would use the tools outside of their role to attempt to do the job of other roles (as Vercure/raise allows RDM to dip into group healing).
At their most efficient use, barrier skills are often utilized by DPS to soak damage-heavy mechanics, and in extreme cases they have been popped to give a high-aggro DPS some time to hold the boss until a tank is revived. Hell, two of those mDPS have stances that give them low but indefinite mitigation at a damage loss, while SMN's use of Titan-Egi has always been affiliated with some minor form of tanking. Those are cases where DPS explicitly hybridize into tanking roles.
And as I also stated, effects like Apocatastasis and Erase allowed all caster DPS including BLMs to perform a healing role in a minor capacity -- Erase itself was even a priority over Esuna in some cases, given that it was free and oGCD.
So it's very curious to me that your position is specifically in naming every other edge case an "exception" specifically to disallow SMN from having a viable Physick effect, or BLM from a spammable self-healing effect.

Furthermore, the question wasn't "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen," it was "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen ignore their responsibilities as a DPS for extended periods in order to do the incumbent healer's job?"
One or two? Five to ten? Dozens? Hundreds?
Because your argument hinges on a grand number of new players specifically using their late, singular healing ability to attempt to perform an entire other role from a DPS position at a meaningful level, and I find it hard to believe you've seen such an extreme number of confused new players as to justify not giving any more non-emergency healing skills to other jobs -- or in this case with Physick, to justify not buffing an existing skill which, if you were right, would already be subject to exactly the same confusion even after Sastasha.

It reads to me like you saw it happen a couple times and generalized it, instead of just telling them to DPS and let the healers do their job.

If I explain yet again how these things are not the same, I'll simply be repeating myself. Maybe I'll go down this rabbit hole again later, but not right now.

[Jandor]

The only serviceable, spammable heal on that list is Vercure, which I strongly believe was included only so that RDM could lay claim to an iconic White Magic Cure and so that they had a self-targeting spell to set up Dual Cast during phase transitions.

Paladin's clemency is servicable and spammable.

[Archwizard]

If I explain yet again how these things are not the same, I'll simply be repeating myself. Maybe I'll go down this rabbit hole again later, but not right now.

Well then if the first half is too repetitive, please address the second:

Furthermore, the question wasn't "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen," it was "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen ignore their responsibilities as a DPS for extended periods in order to do the incumbent healer's job?"
One or two? Five to ten? Dozens? Hundreds?
Because your argument hinges on a grand number of new players specifically using their late, singular healing ability to attempt to perform an entire other role from a DPS position at a meaningful level, and I find it hard to believe you've seen such an extreme number of confused new players as to justify not giving any more non-emergency healing skills to other jobs -- or in this case with Physick, to justify not buffing an existing skill which, if you were right, would already be subject to exactly the same confusion even after Sastasha.

Because the burden of proof lies on the accuser, and "a relevant number of RDMs are fooled into full-healing outside of emergencies by the presence of Vercure" is not something I can say to be universally true based on experience.

[Cynfael]

Paladin's clemency is servicable and spammable.

IIRC it has MP limitations that somewhat mitigate its spam potential. It also tends to be abused by backseat-healing tanks, like Vercure by RDMs of a similar mindset.

Well then if the first half is too repetitive, please address the second:


Because the burden of proof lies on the accuser, and "a relevant number of RDMs are fooled into full-healing outside of emergencies by the presence of Vercure" is not something I can say to be universally true based on experience.

I'm not sure how taking a stance in this discussion makes me an "accuser", but sure.... You continue to deconstruct my writing and make strawmen out of it: I didn't claim that there were RDMs healing full-time all over the place. What I said was that I've observed many RDMs stopping DPS to heal unnecessarily. Perhaps it's our respective definitions of "unnecessary" healing that differ?

In any case it comes down to your experience versus mine, which is a wash, because neither of us can provide hard evidence, as is usually the case when we're speaking anecdotally.

[Eloah]

To simplify every point that everyone might be trying to make, each job as a form of self sustaining themselves and/or support for the party. It is not out of the question for people to ask for for some changes for those jobs that don't have those types of skills or have those types of skill, but in a less than effective manner. Which is why players want SMN Physick changed to something that is usable, akin to Vercure and Clemancy. Or for BLM to get back a way of dealing damage while sustaining their own HP.

This isn't a single player game, nor is it a completely multiplayer one, each job needs a way to survive. Healers and Tanks have attacks because they need to be able to do content solo. So why is it so hard to ask for DPS to have some forms of self sustain?

[Archwizard]

I'm not sure how taking a stance in this discussion makes me an "accuser", but sure.... You continue to deconstruct my writing and make strawmen out of it

I'm pointing out the logical flaws in your generalized arguments by providing examples that the same logic could be used to justify anything, and you're simply being selective for reasons you won't explain.

I didn't claim that there were RDMs healing full-time all over the place.

No, but you did state "you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing."

I've been trying to get you to explain this statement -- how many RDMs do so, for clarity? -- preferably with some kind of tangible evidence or common knowledge, because as far as I can tell, there's no epidemic of RDMs trying to make their way as core healers. A handful of players stopping to throw out a heal on occasion is not a flaw of the job, it's just people throwing out unnecessary heals, like if a healer wasted a cooldown. But you continue to speak like it's a design flaw that they can.

But as you state, it can only be backed anecdotally, which makes it something of an irrelevant justification, and thus removes the weight from your argument.