An arguement towards having Healing on DPS

[Cynfael]

OP's saying what I've been saying for a month now.

Sure, Drain as it was in SB was crap, nobody's disputing that -- literally every time the mention of returning Drain to BLM comes up, the word "buffed" is liberally sprinkled in.
"But they could have just buffed it before!" Not really, when you remember it was a role action available to leveling ACNs and Ruin was only 20 potency higher. Limiting it to one job is the best thing that could ever happen to Drain.
We don't even want it to be something to replace having a healer, we just want something to sustain ourselves when we don't have a pocket healer.



No you're right, just SMN and (iirc) a couple DoWs.
Who also have heals.

And I mean c'mon, RDMs jump into melee, I wouldn't be surprised if they get one next Xpac.



K mate I'm gonna have to get real with you for a minute: How often have you actually seen that?

Because I literally never have, and as a RDM main I'm constantly looking at other RDMs I party with to see how I compare.
Throughout Stormblood I've seen one RDM do a rotation of fullcast VAero -> dual VThunder -> fullcast VStone -> dual VFire, and I've seen a handful use Scatter in single-target.
I've even encountered one who claimed they couldn't cast Verraise 'cuz Swiftcast was on CD.

What I've never seen is a RDM drop everything to Vercure the tanks and other DPS during a bossfight, unless either the healers were down/recovering/useless (where I've been that guy), or they needed a Dualcast proc.
So if you've seen that more than like, twice? Then you're probably consistently grouping with some bad players. On the whole, most of the RDM players I meet tend to at least understand that their role is to kill things, given the big red sword icon that comes up when they queue for anything.

Furthermore: Your argument only carries over to not allowing Physick to be Int-based to prevent them from doing the healer's job, not to disallowing BLMs to self-heal (hell, you yourself said "nothing wrong with non-healers having emergency heals").
Also also: Your argument is at the precipice of a slippery slope. The same logic could be applied to removing barrier skills from DPS since they don't tank, for instance, and would serve to fortify arguments against returning Apocatastasis and Erase to casters.

Edit for clarity: Emergency means emergency. Vercure is an exception in that it is an emergency utility that is available on-demand on the GCD.

Barrier skills on DPS fall under the "emergency" category and don't affect enmity generation. Apples and oranges. No slippery slope in danger of being navigated.

Yes, I've seen plenty of bad RDMs since their release.

[Archwizard]

Edit for clarity: Emergency means emergency. Vercure is an exception in that it is an emergency utility that is available on-demand on the GCD.

Barrier skills on DPS fall under the "emergency" category and don't affect enmity generation. Apples and oranges. No slippery slope in danger of being navigated.

Yes, I've seen plenty of bad RDMs since their release.

It's not apples and oranges at all -- your argument was that players would use the tools outside of their role to attempt to do the job of other roles (as Vercure/raise allows RDM to dip into group healing).
At their most efficient use, barrier skills are often utilized by DPS to soak damage-heavy mechanics, and in extreme cases they have been popped to give a high-aggro DPS some time to hold the boss until a tank is revived. Hell, two of those mDPS have stances that give them low but indefinite mitigation at a damage loss, while SMN's use of Titan-Egi has always been affiliated with some minor form of tanking. Those are cases where DPS explicitly hybridize into tanking roles.
And as I also stated, effects like Apocatastasis and Erase allowed all caster DPS including BLMs to perform a healing role in a minor capacity -- Erase itself was even a priority over Esuna in some cases, given that it was free and oGCD.
So it's very curious to me that your position is specifically in naming every other edge case an "exception" specifically to disallow SMN from having a viable Physick effect, or BLM from a spammable self-healing effect.

Furthermore, the question wasn't "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen," it was "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen ignore their responsibilities as a DPS for extended periods in order to do the incumbent healer's job?"
One or two? Five to ten? Dozens? Hundreds?
Because your argument hinges on a grand number of new players specifically using their late, singular healing ability to attempt to perform an entire other role from a DPS position at a meaningful level, and I find it hard to believe you've seen such an extreme number of confused new players as to justify not giving any more non-emergency healing skills to other jobs -- or in this case with Physick, to justify not buffing an existing skill which, if you were right, would already be subject to exactly the same confusion even after Sastasha.

It reads to me like you saw it happen a couple times and generalized it, instead of just telling them to DPS and let the healers do their job.

[Cynfael]

It's not apples and oranges at all -- your argument was that players would use the tools outside of their role to attempt to do the job of other roles (as Vercure/raise allows RDM to dip into group healing).
At their most efficient use, barrier skills are often utilized by DPS to soak damage-heavy mechanics, and in extreme cases they have been popped to give a high-aggro DPS some time to hold the boss until a tank is revived. Hell, two of those mDPS have stances that give them low but indefinite mitigation at a damage loss, while SMN's use of Titan-Egi has always been affiliated with some minor form of tanking. Those are cases where DPS explicitly hybridize into tanking roles.
And as I also stated, effects like Apocatastasis and Erase allowed all caster DPS including BLMs to perform a healing role in a minor capacity -- Erase itself was even a priority over Esuna in some cases, given that it was free and oGCD.
So it's very curious to me that your position is specifically in naming every other edge case an "exception" specifically to disallow SMN from having a viable Physick effect, or BLM from a spammable self-healing effect.

Furthermore, the question wasn't "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen," it was "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen ignore their responsibilities as a DPS for extended periods in order to do the incumbent healer's job?"
One or two? Five to ten? Dozens? Hundreds?
Because your argument hinges on a grand number of new players specifically using their late, singular healing ability to attempt to perform an entire other role from a DPS position at a meaningful level, and I find it hard to believe you've seen such an extreme number of confused new players as to justify not giving any more non-emergency healing skills to other jobs -- or in this case with Physick, to justify not buffing an existing skill which, if you were right, would already be subject to exactly the same confusion even after Sastasha.

It reads to me like you saw it happen a couple times and generalized it, instead of just telling them to DPS and let the healers do their job.

If I explain yet again how these things are not the same, I'll simply be repeating myself. Maybe I'll go down this rabbit hole again later, but not right now.

[Archwizard]

If I explain yet again how these things are not the same, I'll simply be repeating myself. Maybe I'll go down this rabbit hole again later, but not right now.

Well then if the first half is too repetitive, please address the second:

Furthermore, the question wasn't "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen," it was "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen ignore their responsibilities as a DPS for extended periods in order to do the incumbent healer's job?"
One or two? Five to ten? Dozens? Hundreds?
Because your argument hinges on a grand number of new players specifically using their late, singular healing ability to attempt to perform an entire other role from a DPS position at a meaningful level, and I find it hard to believe you've seen such an extreme number of confused new players as to justify not giving any more non-emergency healing skills to other jobs -- or in this case with Physick, to justify not buffing an existing skill which, if you were right, would already be subject to exactly the same confusion even after Sastasha.

Because the burden of proof lies on the accuser, and "a relevant number of RDMs are fooled into full-healing outside of emergencies by the presence of Vercure" is not something I can say to be universally true based on experience.