An arguement towards having Healing on DPS

[Corosar]

I just recently realized something rather mindblowing when i thought about it.

I see the community constantly complaining about summoners wanting physick to be useful. to be honest. For the longest time i thought that they had somewhat a point since i didn't have experience with other classes but on thought of class abilities and spells. i came to the realization.

Out of every class in the game. Only blackmage is the one that DOES NOT have a self healing ability of some kind.

To people that say DPS should not have a heal. all classes have them.
-Disciples of war have second wind. Some others even have bloodbath which also heal themselves.
-Redmage has Vercure
-Summoner has a (Mind attuned) physick and now Pheonix
-Blue mage.... is bluemage
-Healers be healers
-Hell even the tanks have abilities that heal.

This kinda makes the removal of Drain as one of the things that makes black mage completely different.

I actually argue.. That Drain should have been buffed and given solely to blackmage. Or one of their abilities modified to add a vampiric effect or some sort. Bring them up so they can too be self reliant.

And yea i want Arcanist_Physick to be Int based. But i think the black mage should get something for themselves too. Sure they have a shield. but that is on a 2 minute cooldown. They are the ones most deserving of a heal ability.

[Duskane]

it doesn't need one in pve (since Convert heals HP in pvp)
every other DPS in the game don't have a huge shield they can pop like BLM

[ADVSS]

I just recently realized something rather mindblowing when i thought about it.

I see the community constantly complaining about summoners wanting physick to be useful. to be honest. For the longest time i thought that they had somewhat a point since i didn't have experience with other classes but on thought of class abilities and spells. i came to the realization.

Out of every class in the game. Only blackmage is the one that DOES NOT have a self healing ability of some kind.

To people that say DPS should not have a heal. all classes have them.
-Disciples of war have second wind. Some others even have bloodbath which also heal themselves.
-Redmage has Vercure
-Summoner has a (Mind attuned) physick and now Pheonix
-Blue mage.... is bluemage
-Healers be healers
-Hell even the tanks have abilities that heal.

This kinda makes the removal of Drain as one of the things that makes black mage completely different.

I actually argue.. That Drain should have been buffed and given solely to blackmage. Or one of their abilities modified to add a vampiric effect or some sort. Bring them up so they can too be self reliant.

And yea i want Arcanist_Physick to be Int based. But i think the black mage should get something for themselves too. Sure they have a shield. but that is on a 2 minute cooldown. They are the ones most deserving of a heal ability.

Phoenix looks like it might be o.k. but I havent gotten there yet, im sure someone can confirm if it makes a difference, it looks like it would give more than physick if it isnt mnd based for sure, but it is a hot, it is aoe as well. I agree with Drain though, buffed, it IS a Black Magic spell from previous FF. I see no reason why it cant be a BLM spell, for BLMs only.

[Cynfael]

I just recently realized something rather mindblowing when i thought about it.

I see the community constantly complaining about summoners wanting physick to be useful. to be honest. For the longest time i thought that they had somewhat a point since i didn't have experience with other classes but on thought of class abilities and spells. i came to the realization.

Out of every class in the game. Only blackmage is the one that DOES NOT have a self healing ability of some kind.

To people that say DPS should not have a heal. all classes have them.
-Disciples of war have second wind. Some others even have bloodbath which also heal themselves.
-Redmage has Vercure
-Summoner has a (Mind attuned) physick and now Pheonix
-Blue mage.... is bluemage
-Healers be healers
-Hell even the tanks have abilities that heal.

This kinda makes the removal of Drain as one of the things that makes black mage completely different.

I actually argue.. That Drain should have been buffed and given solely to blackmage. Or one of their abilities modified to add a vampiric effect or some sort. Bring them up so they can too be self reliant.

And yea i want Arcanist_Physick to be Int based. But i think the black mage should get something for themselves too. Sure they have a shield. but that is on a 2 minute cooldown. They are the ones most deserving of a heal ability.

Putting aside BLU since it doesn't really matter outside of BLU-themed content, the only serviceable, spammable heal on that list is Vercure, which I strongly believe was included only so that RDM could lay claim to an iconic White Magic Cure and so that they had a self-targeting spell to set up Dual Cast during phase transitions.

There's nothing wrong with non-healers having an emergency heal, but you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing. I've had the argument presented to me that we shouldn't withhold tools simply because some bad players might not use them correctly, but to me this is a fundamental design issue. If you want a role trinity design not to be a complete mess, you do have to shoehorn players into their roles to an extent. You can't make them be good at those roles, but you can at least limit their ability to try to screw up the entire system by not giving them tools that are likely to encourage them to ignore their assigned role.*


*Obviously this doesn't apply to the same extent to healers since healing in this game is not a full-time job and they need DPS tools if they want to do anything other than sit on their thumbs between heals. The DPS role, on the other hand, really has only one job to do, and healing themselves and others on a regular basis is not it.

[Archwizard]

OP's saying what I've been saying for a month now.

Sure, Drain as it was in SB was crap, nobody's disputing that -- literally every time the mention of returning Drain to BLM comes up, the word "buffed" is liberally sprinkled in.
"But they could have just buffed it before!" Not really, when you remember it was a role action available to leveling ACNs and Ruin was only 20 potency higher. Limiting it to one job is the best thing that could ever happen to Drain.
We don't even want it to be something to replace having a healer, we just want something to sustain ourselves when we don't have a pocket healer.

every other DPS in the game don't have a huge shield they can pop like BLM

No you're right, just SMN and (iirc) a couple DoWs.
Who also have heals.

And I mean c'mon, RDMs jump into melee, I wouldn't be surprised if they get one next Xpac.

There's nothing wrong with non-healers having an emergency heal, but you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing.

K mate I'm gonna have to get real with you for a minute: How often have you actually seen that?

Because I literally never have, and as a RDM main I'm constantly looking at other RDMs I party with to see how I compare.
Throughout Stormblood I've seen one RDM do a rotation of fullcast VAero -> dual VThunder -> fullcast VStone -> dual VFire, and I've seen a handful use Scatter in single-target.
I've even encountered one who claimed they couldn't cast Verraise 'cuz Swiftcast was on CD.

What I've never seen is a RDM drop everything to Vercure the tanks and other DPS during a bossfight, unless either the healers were down/recovering/useless (where I've been that guy), or they needed a Dualcast proc.
So if you've seen that more than like, twice? Then you're probably consistently grouping with some bad players. On the whole, most of the RDM players I meet tend to at least understand that their role is to kill things, given the big red sword icon that comes up when they queue for anything.

Furthermore: Your argument only carries over to not allowing Physick to be Int-based to prevent them from doing the healer's job, not to disallowing BLMs to self-heal (hell, you yourself said "nothing wrong with non-healers having emergency heals").
Also also: Your argument is at the precipice of a slippery slope. The same logic could be applied to removing barrier skills from DPS since they don't tank, for instance, and would serve to fortify arguments against returning Apocatastasis and Erase to casters.

[Corosar]

it doesn't need one in pve (since Convert heals HP in pvp)
every other DPS in the game don't have a huge shield they can pop like BLM

Summoner has a better shield if you use Topaz as a primary. It charges in 30 seconds blocks only 20% of your max health and has 2 charges on it. You lose the Ruin 4 from it but its still arguably better. Black gains a 30% shield every 2 minutes. I feel that only makes the argument more so.

Phoenix looks like it might be o.k.

From my current tests of Pheonix. It heals around 12k just out of the final boss over the course of 20 seconds (about 2k 6 times) If you stand in white mage's AOE bubble thingy. it goes up to about 3k per tick (18k over 20 seconds) so it does alright.

Putting aside BLU since it doesn't really matter outside of BLU-themed content, the only serviceable, spammable heal on that list is Vercure, which I strongly believe was included only so that RDM could lay claim to an iconic White Magic Cure and so that they had a self-targeting spell to set up Dual Cast during phase transitions.

There's nothing wrong with non-healers having an emergency heal, but you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing. I've had the argument presented to me that we shouldn't withhold tools simply because some bad players might not use them correctly, but to me this is a fundamental design issue. If you want a role trinity design not to be a complete mess, you do have to shoehorn players into their roles to an extent. You can't make them be good at those roles, but you can at least limit their ability to try to screw up the entire system by not giving them tools that are likely to encourage them to ignore their assigned role.*

I admit blu is not a contestant here. but i still included it for completion sakes. I personally like the idea of being self reliant somewhat if shit hits the fan and having an ability to do so is good in the end. I admit i summoner main but never cared much for my own personal Damage per second since i play with my own group. 4.0 Physick was still able to be made useful with Mind materia but that don't work anymore. I said INT physick cus then that does not screw over Arcanists using Physick since they should have similar INT and MIND.

However Black mage not having a heal at all does mean that they are far less likely to be able to sustain themselves as easily as every other class (Including blu) I just feel that they should have something at least.

[Duskane]

No you're right, just SMN and (iirc) a couple DoWs.
Who also have heals.

Third eye and Riddle of earth are hardly comparable to manaward since they are just % mitigation instead of a full on shield
and titan is still a joke sure 20% shield fine but BLM 25% shield will help much more in the long run

[Corosar]

Third eye and Riddle of earth are hardly comparable to manaward since they are just % mitigation instead of a full on shield
and titan is still a joke sure 20% shield fine but BLM 25% shield will help much more in the long run

Titan gets to use it 4 times within the time that Blackmage gets to use it once. so.. no.. Titan is far better

And we get to store 2 charges

[Kabooa]

Titan gets to use it 4 times within the time that Blackmage gets to use it once. so.. no.. Titan is far better

And we get to store 2 charges

Enjoy taking that massive DPS dump to have it on demand.

[Corosar]

Enjoy taking that massive DPS dump to have it on demand.

A sacrifice i actually don't mind taking. saved me from wasting a Healer's res