An arguement towards having Healing on DPS

[Corosar]

I just recently realized something rather mindblowing when i thought about it.

I see the community constantly complaining about summoners wanting physick to be useful. to be honest. For the longest time i thought that they had somewhat a point since i didn't have experience with other classes but on thought of class abilities and spells. i came to the realization.

Out of every class in the game. Only blackmage is the one that DOES NOT have a self healing ability of some kind.

To people that say DPS should not have a heal. all classes have them.
-Disciples of war have second wind. Some others even have bloodbath which also heal themselves.
-Redmage has Vercure
-Summoner has a (Mind attuned) physick and now Pheonix
-Blue mage.... is bluemage
-Healers be healers
-Hell even the tanks have abilities that heal.

This kinda makes the removal of Drain as one of the things that makes black mage completely different.

I actually argue.. That Drain should have been buffed and given solely to blackmage. Or one of their abilities modified to add a vampiric effect or some sort. Bring them up so they can too be self reliant.

And yea i want Arcanist_Physick to be Int based. But i think the black mage should get something for themselves too. Sure they have a shield. but that is on a 2 minute cooldown. They are the ones most deserving of a heal ability.

[Duskane]

it doesn't need one in pve (since Convert heals HP in pvp)
every other DPS in the game don't have a huge shield they can pop like BLM

[Archwizard]

OP's saying what I've been saying for a month now.

Sure, Drain as it was in SB was crap, nobody's disputing that -- literally every time the mention of returning Drain to BLM comes up, the word "buffed" is liberally sprinkled in.
"But they could have just buffed it before!" Not really, when you remember it was a role action available to leveling ACNs and Ruin was only 20 potency higher. Limiting it to one job is the best thing that could ever happen to Drain.
We don't even want it to be something to replace having a healer, we just want something to sustain ourselves when we don't have a pocket healer.

every other DPS in the game don't have a huge shield they can pop like BLM

No you're right, just SMN and (iirc) a couple DoWs.
Who also have heals.

And I mean c'mon, RDMs jump into melee, I wouldn't be surprised if they get one next Xpac.

There's nothing wrong with non-healers having an emergency heal, but you only need to look at how many RDMs stop doing their actual jobs in favor of trying to do the healer's job to see what happens when we give DPS access to viable, on-demand healing.

K mate I'm gonna have to get real with you for a minute: How often have you actually seen that?

Because I literally never have, and as a RDM main I'm constantly looking at other RDMs I party with to see how I compare.
Throughout Stormblood I've seen one RDM do a rotation of fullcast VAero -> dual VThunder -> fullcast VStone -> dual VFire, and I've seen a handful use Scatter in single-target.
I've even encountered one who claimed they couldn't cast Verraise 'cuz Swiftcast was on CD.

What I've never seen is a RDM drop everything to Vercure the tanks and other DPS during a bossfight, unless either the healers were down/recovering/useless (where I've been that guy), or they needed a Dualcast proc.
So if you've seen that more than like, twice? Then you're probably consistently grouping with some bad players. On the whole, most of the RDM players I meet tend to at least understand that their role is to kill things, given the big red sword icon that comes up when they queue for anything.

Furthermore: Your argument only carries over to not allowing Physick to be Int-based to prevent them from doing the healer's job, not to disallowing BLMs to self-heal (hell, you yourself said "nothing wrong with non-healers having emergency heals").
Also also: Your argument is at the precipice of a slippery slope. The same logic could be applied to removing barrier skills from DPS since they don't tank, for instance, and would serve to fortify arguments against returning Apocatastasis and Erase to casters.

[Duskane]

No you're right, just SMN and (iirc) a couple DoWs.
Who also have heals.

Third eye and Riddle of earth are hardly comparable to manaward since they are just % mitigation instead of a full on shield
and titan is still a joke sure 20% shield fine but BLM 25% shield will help much more in the long run

[Corosar]

Third eye and Riddle of earth are hardly comparable to manaward since they are just % mitigation instead of a full on shield
and titan is still a joke sure 20% shield fine but BLM 25% shield will help much more in the long run

Titan gets to use it 4 times within the time that Blackmage gets to use it once. so.. no.. Titan is far better

And we get to store 2 charges

[Kabooa]

Titan gets to use it 4 times within the time that Blackmage gets to use it once. so.. no.. Titan is far better

And we get to store 2 charges

Enjoy taking that massive DPS dump to have it on demand.

[Cynfael]

OP's saying what I've been saying for a month now.

Sure, Drain as it was in SB was crap, nobody's disputing that -- literally every time the mention of returning Drain to BLM comes up, the word "buffed" is liberally sprinkled in.
"But they could have just buffed it before!" Not really, when you remember it was a role action available to leveling ACNs and Ruin was only 20 potency higher. Limiting it to one job is the best thing that could ever happen to Drain.
We don't even want it to be something to replace having a healer, we just want something to sustain ourselves when we don't have a pocket healer.



No you're right, just SMN and (iirc) a couple DoWs.
Who also have heals.

And I mean c'mon, RDMs jump into melee, I wouldn't be surprised if they get one next Xpac.



K mate I'm gonna have to get real with you for a minute: How often have you actually seen that?

Because I literally never have, and as a RDM main I'm constantly looking at other RDMs I party with to see how I compare.
Throughout Stormblood I've seen one RDM do a rotation of fullcast VAero -> dual VThunder -> fullcast VStone -> dual VFire, and I've seen a handful use Scatter in single-target.
I've even encountered one who claimed they couldn't cast Verraise 'cuz Swiftcast was on CD.

What I've never seen is a RDM drop everything to Vercure the tanks and other DPS during a bossfight, unless either the healers were down/recovering/useless (where I've been that guy), or they needed a Dualcast proc.
So if you've seen that more than like, twice? Then you're probably consistently grouping with some bad players. On the whole, most of the RDM players I meet tend to at least understand that their role is to kill things, given the big red sword icon that comes up when they queue for anything.

Furthermore: Your argument only carries over to not allowing Physick to be Int-based to prevent them from doing the healer's job, not to disallowing BLMs to self-heal (hell, you yourself said "nothing wrong with non-healers having emergency heals").
Also also: Your argument is at the precipice of a slippery slope. The same logic could be applied to removing barrier skills from DPS since they don't tank, for instance, and would serve to fortify arguments against returning Apocatastasis and Erase to casters.

Edit for clarity: Emergency means emergency. Vercure is an exception in that it is an emergency utility that is available on-demand on the GCD.

Barrier skills on DPS fall under the "emergency" category and don't affect enmity generation. Apples and oranges. No slippery slope in danger of being navigated.

Yes, I've seen plenty of bad RDMs since their release.

[Archwizard]

Edit for clarity: Emergency means emergency. Vercure is an exception in that it is an emergency utility that is available on-demand on the GCD.

Barrier skills on DPS fall under the "emergency" category and don't affect enmity generation. Apples and oranges. No slippery slope in danger of being navigated.

Yes, I've seen plenty of bad RDMs since their release.

It's not apples and oranges at all -- your argument was that players would use the tools outside of their role to attempt to do the job of other roles (as Vercure/raise allows RDM to dip into group healing).
At their most efficient use, barrier skills are often utilized by DPS to soak damage-heavy mechanics, and in extreme cases they have been popped to give a high-aggro DPS some time to hold the boss until a tank is revived. Hell, two of those mDPS have stances that give them low but indefinite mitigation at a damage loss, while SMN's use of Titan-Egi has always been affiliated with some minor form of tanking. Those are cases where DPS explicitly hybridize into tanking roles.
And as I also stated, effects like Apocatastasis and Erase allowed all caster DPS including BLMs to perform a healing role in a minor capacity -- Erase itself was even a priority over Esuna in some cases, given that it was free and oGCD.
So it's very curious to me that your position is specifically in naming every other edge case an "exception" specifically to disallow SMN from having a viable Physick effect, or BLM from a spammable self-healing effect.

Furthermore, the question wasn't "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen," it was "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen ignore their responsibilities as a DPS for extended periods in order to do the incumbent healer's job?"
One or two? Five to ten? Dozens? Hundreds?
Because your argument hinges on a grand number of new players specifically using their late, singular healing ability to attempt to perform an entire other role from a DPS position at a meaningful level, and I find it hard to believe you've seen such an extreme number of confused new players as to justify not giving any more non-emergency healing skills to other jobs -- or in this case with Physick, to justify not buffing an existing skill which, if you were right, would already be subject to exactly the same confusion even after Sastasha.

It reads to me like you saw it happen a couple times and generalized it, instead of just telling them to DPS and let the healers do their job.

[Cynfael]

It's not apples and oranges at all -- your argument was that players would use the tools outside of their role to attempt to do the job of other roles (as Vercure/raise allows RDM to dip into group healing).
At their most efficient use, barrier skills are often utilized by DPS to soak damage-heavy mechanics, and in extreme cases they have been popped to give a high-aggro DPS some time to hold the boss until a tank is revived. Hell, two of those mDPS have stances that give them low but indefinite mitigation at a damage loss, while SMN's use of Titan-Egi has always been affiliated with some minor form of tanking. Those are cases where DPS explicitly hybridize into tanking roles.
And as I also stated, effects like Apocatastasis and Erase allowed all caster DPS including BLMs to perform a healing role in a minor capacity -- Erase itself was even a priority over Esuna in some cases, given that it was free and oGCD.
So it's very curious to me that your position is specifically in naming every other edge case an "exception" specifically to disallow SMN from having a viable Physick effect, or BLM from a spammable self-healing effect.

Furthermore, the question wasn't "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen," it was "How many bad RDMs have you actually seen ignore their responsibilities as a DPS for extended periods in order to do the incumbent healer's job?"
One or two? Five to ten? Dozens? Hundreds?
Because your argument hinges on a grand number of new players specifically using their late, singular healing ability to attempt to perform an entire other role from a DPS position at a meaningful level, and I find it hard to believe you've seen such an extreme number of confused new players as to justify not giving any more non-emergency healing skills to other jobs -- or in this case with Physick, to justify not buffing an existing skill which, if you were right, would already be subject to exactly the same confusion even after Sastasha.

It reads to me like you saw it happen a couple times and generalized it, instead of just telling them to DPS and let the healers do their job.

If I explain yet again how these things are not the same, I'll simply be repeating myself. Maybe I'll go down this rabbit hole again later, but not right now.

[Shurrikhan]

OP's saying what I've been saying for a month now.

And I mean c'mon, RDMs jump into melee, I wouldn't be surprised if they get one next Xpac.

So because RDM is occasionally melee, it should have a shield that doesn't cost them dps while actual melee... don't?

On the other points I agree. I see no reason Physic shouldn't be decent, given that that too would cost dps and cannot increase maximum HP: I'd prefer that BLM be the only one able to increase max eHP without a cost to their damage.