An arguement towards having Healing on DPS

[Acidblood]

Nobody's asking for a Drain skill that fits into the core rotation or replaces having a healer.

The thinking is that much as healers can deal damage just not as well as a DPS, a DPS should be able to self-heal but not as well as a dedicated healer (or tank for that matter), at least for the purposes of solo content.

Also, literally nobody mentioned Raise or any form of utility. Drain explicitly would be a self-heal.
This isn't some grand group aid intended to come "at the cost of" damage, it's literally just for having a way to hold yourself up when a mob is eating your face without having to wait 2 minutes for Manaward. Much like you're not doing damage while you're casting Vercure, the act of using it would come with a damage penalty in itself, so you shouldn't have to worry about "watered down DPS" in exchange.

Then why not just play RDM?

Edit: And Second Wind is a utility, the same with Blood Bath, a personal utility maybe, but I'm sure it's still counted in the overall makeup of the class (BLM has the highest DPS for a reason).

Edit: As for Tanks and Healers, they need to do reasonable DPS so they aren't chained to a DPS class to do, well, anything... the same is not true of DPS classes, world mobs are not so difficult as to require self-healing. Yes, there is certain 'solo' content where self-healing is very useful (again, play a RDM), but if all DPS could self-sustain then why would there be any need of (or benefit for playing) Tanks or Healers?

NB. And I brought up Raise because it is the other thing that people keep asking for BLM to be given, but IMO BLM should never ever have.

[Archwizard]

Then why not just play RDM?

Oh, I do, but that's not the point. The point is you shouldn't have to switch jobs completely just for a self-heal, especially when BLM is the odd man out in that regard.

Oh, and the entire issue with Drain was that it literally healed less than a standard world mobs auto attack; i.e. using it was a net negative in terms of both HP and damage. For a healing ability to be useful it needs to heal more damage than you are taking, significantly so if it is going to be of any practical use.

And the section you literally quoted asked for it to be buffed if returned to BLM. See?

I actually argue.. That Drain should have been buffed and given solely to blackmage. Or one of their abilities modified to add a vampiric effect or some sort. Bring them up so they can too be self reliant.

Just for some example numbers, I like to go with 200 potency damage and 150% damage as healing. Since RDM has the same relative health pool and Vercure's 350 potency heals between 1/3 to 1/2 my HP at any given level, a 300 potency heal with some damage ought to be more than sufficient for emergency sustainability -- and that's without Enochian. Triplecast it for a full-heal. (Hell, two casts oughta do it with Enochian.)

NB. And I brought up Raise because it is the other thing that people keep asking for BLM to be given, but IMO BLM should never ever have.

1) Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
2) Completely irrelevant to this topic.

[Acidblood]

Oh, I do, but that's not the point. The point is you shouldn't have to switch jobs completely just for a self-heal, especially when BLM is the odd man out in that regard.

No, it isn't. RDM is the odd DPS out with self-sustain. No other DPS can heal themselves even close to as well as a RDM can. And your proposed changes are ludicrous, they would turn BLM into a self-healing god, and it would come at a cost! (just as BLM being given a Raise would come at a cost).

[battleshadow66]

Talking about drain. They really should of given it to SMN as a replacement of Physicks. Give them a trait that upgrades it, put it on like a 45 sec CD or something.

[Archwizard]

No, it isn't. RDM is the odd DPS out with self-sustain. No other DPS can heal themselves even close to as well as a RDM can. And your proposed changes are ludicrous, they would turn BLM into a self-healing god, and it would come at a cost!

To be fair, most other DPS really don't need to, given their higher base survivability or greater frequency of survival tools than BLM. In most cases Second Wind and a mix of Bloodbath or CC would be enough.

... You're aware that with only 200 potency unaspected damage you would still prefer even a Fire 1 for damage, right? I'm not worried about being a "self-healing god", particularly if the heal is still weaker than... name any other heal in the game, and can only be used on yourself. The value I gave just isn't godawful like old Drain's "80% of 80 potency".
We're just squishy, so a 300 potency heal is a lot for us.
But yes, in that regard, it would come at an immediate cost in that you're casting Drain instead of casting Fire IV. Again, much as you're losing damage while casting Vercure instead of Jolt.
But considering it's a personal tool that doesn't impact raid value -- and in fact, would ideally never be used in raids except in emergencies, since a real healer would still be more effective, just look at how rarely Vercure gets used for that -- your peak output would not need to be changed, no.

(just as BLM being given a Raise would come at a cost)

1) Raise has a raid value; it intrinsically brings up group damage compared to death. A self-heal on a DPS would not, especially if they're not doing their main rotation while casting it. RDM gets its damage downtuned due to access to spammable insta-Raises that would otherwise cost a healer 8 sec to cast and simultaneously bring up a player that much sooner, not for their passable self-Cures that cost a GCD either way.
Best case scenario in a raid environment, Drain saves the healer having to throw a heal on you so they can throw an attack instead, but which is worth more damage and healing overall: a WHM Glare (300p damage) plus a BLM Drain (200p*1.15 damage, *1.5 healing) as presented, or a WHM Cure (400p healing) plus a BLM Fire IV (300p*1.8*1.15 damage)?
If each job does what they're best at, everyone wins.
Outside of emergencies and niche cases, the only value Drain intrinsically brings up is outside of a raid, much like Sleep, so your BLM's peak damage need not be affected.

2) You're still the only one bringing Raise on BLM up and it's an unflattering look for you.

[Acidblood]

Just for some example numbers, I like to go with 200 potency damage and 150% damage as healing. Since RDM has the same relative health pool and Vercure's 350 potency heals between 1/3 to 1/2 my HP at any given level, a 300 potency heal with some damage ought to be more than sufficient for emergency sustainability -- and that's without Enochian. Triplecast it for a full-heal. (Hell, two casts oughta do it with Enochian.).

Your words. That's pretty god like for the best DPS in game, and far better than any Melee (or Physical Ranged) can do... hell even the Tanks short of PLD can't do that, and PLD doesn't have unlimited MP. (Yeah, yeah, better defence, go play a Tank).

.snip.

So you're saying preventing your own death has no value? In that case, why doesn't every class just have Vercure... erg, stop pretending other DPS have some magical ability to heal themselves the way RDM does; RDM is the outlier, not the rule. And yes, BLM is an outlier as well (sacrificing all for DPS), but that is what diversity means, having options, and FFXIV lets you choose those options freely; i.e. IF you were stuck with the class you originally rolled I may agree with you, but you aren't, so it's a non-issue (all things considered).

[Numenor1379]

What BLM should get is a Bloodbath-style ability.

Say something like "Necrogenesis: Next three spells return 10% of damage in terms of HP."

Even if used on Xenoglossy at the top I've seen it hit for being around 80k, that'd at best return about 1/3 of our HP pool over around 6-8s.

[Archwizard]

Your words. That's pretty god like for the best DPS in game, and far better than any Melee (or Physical Ranged) can do... hell even the Tanks short of PLD can't do that, and PLD doesn't have unlimited MP. (Yeah, yeah, better defence, go play a Tank).

And as this discussion begins to turn circular, I'll throw out your obviously baited trigger words, "I can do that just fine on my RDM" with one of the lowest potency heals in the game.
It's more to do with the fact that caster health is like 2/3 of a melee's than it is any particularly impressive ability to heal.

But seriously, I'll repeat: If we continue using my sample values, you're dealing 230 potency damage and losing a 620 potency attack.

So you're saying preventing your own death has no value?

Not at all. I'm saying that, dodging aside, the act of preventing your death is more effective in the hands of a dedicated healer and rather their job, much as damage-dealing is BLM's. Whenever a RDM is casting Vercure, they're not dealing any damage whatsoever, so it's better for them to ignore it for 99% of raid content despite the "godlike" sustainability you're in awe of and just do their job as a damage-dealer.

On the other hand, RDM can resurrect better than a dedicated healer, making its Verraise access a substantial utility that it sacrifices large amounts of DPS for.

erg, stop pretending other DPS have some magically ability to heal themselves the way RDM does; RDM is the outlier, not the rule.

Have you considered that maybe it shouldn't be?
As I explained, RDM isn't sacrificing its peak damage just because of Vercure -- and even it was, the fact that Drain can't heal anyone else makes BLM safe. Unless you mean to imply that every melee would suddenly shoot up 10% by losing Second Wind and Blood Bath?

[Acidblood]

And as this discussion begins to turn circular, I'll throw out your obviously baited trigger words, "I can do that just fine on my RDM" with one of the lowest potency heals in the game.
It's more to do with the fact that caster health is like 2/3 of a melee's than it is any particularly impressive ability to heal.

Not at all. I'm saying that, dodging aside, the act of preventing your death is more effective in the hands of a dedicated healer and rather their job, much as damage-dealing is BLM's. Whenever a RDM is casting Vercure, they're not casting an attack spell, so it's better for them to ignore it for 99% of raid content despite the "godlike" sustainability you're in awe of and just do their job as a damage-dealer.

On the other hand, RDM can resurrect better than a dedicated healer, making its Verraise access a substantial utility that it sacrifices large amounts of DPS for.

Have you considered that maybe it shouldn't be?
As I explained, RDM isn't sacrificing its peak damage just because of Vercure -- and even it was, the fact that Drain can't heal anyone else makes BLM safe. Unless you mean to imply that every melee would suddenly shoot up 10% by losing Second Wind and Blood Bath?

Just NO. The last thing FFXIV needs is to become more of a solo homogenised casual fest than it already is... also, you need to check your numbers again, casters have about 7/8ths of a melees HP in current gear, and SW and BB don't do nearly as much as you think so 10% would be a bit high. They should get something though, just as BLM should get something if it lost Manaward (due to increased risk of death). Oh and casters also have relatively better magical defence in the same proportion as melees have physical defence (expect DRG).

And I'll say it again (in caps in case you missed it): IF YOU VALUE SELF-SUSTAIN THAT HIGHLY THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER JOBS TO CHOOSE FROM (please try them).

[Archwizard]

-snip-

Aaaaand since you've officially hit "CAPS MEANS I'M SHOUTING" and have once again devolved into "go play something else if you disagree with me," I think our rational discourse has reached its conclusion. Good day.