Going to the same route as WoW. The game is TOO easy

[Melichoir]

To itself. Runescape 3 added a hotbar and a bunch of skills, which so fundamentally changed the game that the players demanded the old game's one-click system return. So eventually they uploaded a saved copy of the game from 2004 and called it Old School Runescape, which eventually garnered so much support, it's playerbase eclipsed Runescape 3, despite that one having better graphics and a larger team working on it.

Can you specifically say that 100% of the reason for this is the hotbar/combat system, or were there other factors involved? As a point, people who have invested time and effort in an MMO are less likely to leave said MMO or gravitate to a new one that is completely different in set up. Im less likely to jump over to EvE online coming from WoW because how they handle gameplay differently. Not that I couldnt, but would I be willing to go to a system that is drastically different and spend a ton of time relearning things. Part of the reason you have WoW players gravitating to FFXIV, is because of how similar they are in many ways. If you played Runescape and were used to a simple combat system, a complex system would be convoluted, especially if it was implemented poorly (not saying it was, but that may also be a factor.)

No it doesn't. You said an MMO couldn't just have 2 buttons, but that wasn't true. You said Runescape was too niche to count, so I asked how many players it needed to have to "count" and you didn't provide one. Looking at the player growth curve over 12 years is a complete distraction from your mistaken point. The fact I had to reach for the Guiness Book of World Records should be enough to point out the Runescape is not obscure of "very niche". You can have it so casual that most game content can be completed by literally pushing 2 skill buttons.

Alright, so Ill grant my initial wording wasnt clear. So Ill clarify it: Modern Mainstream MMOs do not function on 2 button combat systems, and would likely bleed players as a result. Mainstream is defined, as I previously said, by how relevant it is.

Mainstream MMOs are more widely recognized and are more involved in the current dialogue when discussing MMOs (and games at large). This means MMOs can move in and out of mainstream depending their relevance to the game culture at the time.

Now that Ive cleared that point up, let me point this out: Your position is using a niche (as it is one being an outlier of current MMO platforms, not the norm) Legacy MMO that isnt mainstream as an 'example' that an MMO could operate on that. Yes, as you prove, it could. But as I just clarified, modern Mainstream MMOs dont and implementing said system, particularly in FFXIV would end up killing it, not helping it. I predict MOST modern MMOs would end up dying off with that implementation.

The 2008 article point is in reference to you using a "Million subscriber count" as proof of it being more relevant than FFXIV by sub count. Which I was pointing out that if it hit 1 mil subs back in 2008, and it still is at 1 mil subs 2019 across all platforms as implied by the 2018 article, it would mean that runescape itself is most likely not a million subs. This gets more to the point that the more recent 2018 article does not differentiate between a few important factors, which I outlined, so its not a great example if were measuring by sub count alone.

So all this is built on a false premise:

No, its a theory as to why balancing down around easier mechanics at the average level probably end up damaging current MMOs. My original point when put into the context of Main Stream MMOs works just fine. Rather than trying to be "Gotcha!" about teh subject by using a legacy MMO as a prime example that isnt Mainstream nor has had much (if any) impact on games recently, you should try pulling apart what I was theorizing on by pointing out how if they made the game easier and easier around average players that it wouldnt hurt the MMO but would be a boon all the while keeping high end difficult content in game that gets progressively harder. Cause if you had to boil down your position, its pretty much : An old MMO thats still around has 2 button system and because of it, everything else you point out is irrelevant, regardless of the context of the thread at large, FFXIV, Mainstream MMOs and so forth.

[Lissyl]

The MMO Creed, circa 2019

If I can complete it, it isn't hard enough.

If I can't complete it, it's obviously overtuned and needs nerfed.

If someone else can't complete it, they just need to git gud because they're filthy, lazy, and need to be held accountable. Its obviously easy enough and they're ruining the game.

Hyperbole? You tell me.

[Dubont]

The MMO Creed, circa 2019

If I can complete it, it isn't hard enough.

If I can't complete it, it's obviously overtuned and needs nerfed.

If someone else can't complete it, they just need to git gud because they're filthy, lazy, and need to be held accountable. Its obviously easy enough and they're ruining the game.

Hyperbole? You tell me.

sums it up nicely. You did forget the "you don't like [x] about the game? It's because you suck at it" (hello Minecraft and Fortnite players)

[Shurrikhan]

OP is so elitist that he wants to show off just how little meaning his life holds outside of this game. Not everyone has such free time that they can sit at their computer for 20hrs a day, 7 days a week, trying to master a boss battle just to progress through the story. When it comes to actual hard content, sure, I'll read up on the fight and perfect my 3 button presses that any game requires.

There's a vast gap between wanting the difficulty equivalent of being able to go on a walk without being blocked or otherwise pace-set by elderly rehabbers and wanting one's life to be an endless sprint.

We've already had the levels of difficulty being reminisced about. Just as WoW has "Classic" we had fights like Demon Wall, Siren, Titan Ex, and Thordan Ex which stood out from the fights surrounding them. They added spark. They added a bit of enjoyable notoriety. But those stand-out fights are becoming fewer and farther between while much of content just blurs further into each other and out of mind.

And when your idea of hard content is that it involves a third button, and you work so many more hours than the average player of this MMO (your 79+ per week), you are clearly an outlier. Why should the game compromise design for millions to appease just you? I'd be surprised if there are another dozen players with the work-life balance you allege here.

[Dubont]

There's a vast gap between wanting the difficulty equivalent of being able to go on a walk without being blocked or otherwise pace-set by elderly rehabbers and wanting one's life to be an endless sprint.

We've already had the levels of difficulty being reminisced about. Just as WoW has "Classic" we had fights like Demon Wall, Siren, Titan Ex, and Thordan Ex which stood out from the fights surrounding them. They added spark. They added a bit of enjoyable notoriety. But those stand-out fights are becoming fewer and farther between while much of content just blurs further into each other and out of mind.

And when your idea of hard content is that it involves a third button, and you work so many more hours than the average player of this MMO (your 79+ per week), you are clearly an outlier. Why should the game compromise design for millions to appease just you? I'd be surprised if there are another dozen players with the work-life balance you allege here.

"allege" as if it were not the truth. 2pm-11pm Mon-Fri and 6am-11pm Sat & Sun. Should people who work hella hard in real life be forbidden from enjoying this game in their free time? Should the majority of the content be blocked off from anyone past their teenage years? Just because we don't have as much free time to sink into committing every single fight to muscle memory?

I also never said that using a 3rd button was difficult. I'm saying even those "difficult" MMOs are just a 3 button press system. FFXI had some insanely difficult fights. Still just a system of ctrl+1 - 0 to swap gear and using the right spell at the right time. The main difficulty differences were 1) It took FOREVER to do anything because nothing could be done without a full party and getting a party together could take weeks for story content 2) Fighting was less about spamming weapon skills and more about auto attacking for 5 minutes until everyone got enough TP to use a WS chain. So really, not difficult so much as a "hurry up and wait" playstyle

[Shurrikhan]

[1] "allege" as if it were not the truth. 2pm-11pm Mon-Fri and 6am-11pm Sat & Sun. [2] Should people who work hella hard in real life be forbidden from enjoying this game in their free time?

1. I say allege because I have no way of knowing if you're trolling. The mere fact that you would ask that the game be dumbed down to literally fewer than three buttons save in its "hard content", just to pander to your incredibly, incredibly niche, if not outright unique, situation makes you rather suspect in my opinion.

2. No, but the game should not be designed around the 0.0000001%. What you're asking for is far more exclusive and purely self-servicing than the "elitist" desires the OP and those who've at all agreed with her have mentioned, (e.g. wanting a normal ascending difficulty curve over the course of the game--rather than the third expansion, for instance being easier than the first or the base game--or a greater variety of difficulties that does not pander to and thereby aggravate polarizing divides in the playerbase).

[Dubont]

1. I say allege because I have no way of knowing if you're trolling. The mere fact that you would ask that the game be dumbed down to literally fewer than three buttons save in its "hard content", just to pander to your incredibly, incredibly niche, if not outright unique, situation makes you rather suspect in my opinion.

2. No, but the game should not be designed around the 0.0000001%. What you're asking for is far more exclusive and purely self-servicing than the "elitist" desires the OP and those who've at all agreed with her have mentioned, (e.g. wanting a normal ascending difficulty curve over the course of the game--rather than the third expansion, for instance being easier than the first or the base game--or a greater variety of difficulties that does not pander to and thereby aggravate polarizing divides in the playerbase).

1) Nowhere in either of my posts did I say anything about wanting the game being dumbed down to less than 3 buttons. I'm merely pointing out that in every MMO I have ever played (and it has been A LOT of them) they all boil down to using 3 buttons to execute various commands and this game is no different. Even in it's base form, which was pretty obviously quite hard to most of you, despite me finding it very enjoyable, it STILL revolved around using 3ish commands to fight. F to pull out weapon, click to attack, click your spell. DONE.

2) I'm not asking that the entire game cater to adults. I'm saying that the story itself should not be completely locked off to those that can't play all day every day. Hard content and NON-STORY raids? Sure man. Look, FFXI Pandemonium was a complete beast that a lot of people could not tackle at the time. I could, because I was in college. Now though? No way, don't have the time. But that's ok because that was a NM that wasn't required to progress through the story. Chains of Promethia Bahamut fight? Yeah that was some BS. Do you know how long it took to get a group together to complete that thing without wiping? And that was with me having the time to sit on the game all day. Could you imagine now?

Expansion content is never "harder" than previous content. I've never seen a game that does this. The mobs are a higher level or hit for a bit more damage but the game itself is never harder. What are you wanting, a Dark Souls expansion? Get hit once and you die? Do a level 1 speedrun of the game and enjoy being part of the minority.

Or, if you want a truly difficult and unenjoyable game, compared to this one at least, try and find a private server for FFXIV 1.0 or vanilla FFXI. Would you prefer they bring back the daily EXP cap? Or bring back the 100TP cap and every ws used 50+tp (TP only recovered out of battle)? Is that what you want? Because right now, the game seems just fine to every person I've talked to that has a life outside of their mother's home.

[LiteBrite]

I wish these all these WOW threads would just get deleted by the mods. They make me want to vomit... And are worthless.

[Edax]

They make me want to vomit... And are worthless.

No u


/tencharacters

[LiteBrite]

No you quit making WOW threads on FFXIV forums, and go back to WOW's forum and make them there where they belong. You are aware that WOW as its own forum right?