Going to the same route as WoW. The game is TOO easy

[Melichoir]

Runescape isn't "very niche". What exactly is the rule for an MMO to be mainstream? How many active players make it "count"? For a time it was the most famous MMORPG of all time, being the gateway MMO for most MMORPG players. FFXIV only has 668,550 active characters (https://ffxivcensus.com/), while Runescape has 1 million active subscribers (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/01...n-subscribers/).

Mainstream MMOs are more widely recognized and are more involved in the current dialogue when discussing MMOs (and games at large). This means MMOs can move in and out of mainstream depending their relevance to the game culture at the time. Runescape is not mainstream by this criteria. While a classic MMO, it is not a leader in MMOs, nor is it part of the mainstream discussion typically for a lot of reasons (graphics, gameplay, story, features, etc). This doesnt mean people cant enjoy it. I enjoy things like RO, which is old and terrible by all standard means and still has a 'large' enough player count, but it is not mainstream.

Furthermore, while that article says 1 million subscribers, I would need clarity as to what it counts as subscribers, as the article does not seem to mention differences between memberships and F2P members. This is important because if the Runescape model is F2P with people opting in for membership programs with perks, it will naturally have higher player counts because the gate of entry is that low. This gets more complicated because you can play the game still after ending membership. So does that 1 million subscriber count (if it only counts memberships) mean continuously active ones, or does it include any account who had at some period of time for any length a membership. You would see much larger numbers for FFXIV if it had a baseline F2P model with a membership program. Furthermore, that article seems to also suggest that 1 million count is not from the mobile app alone but all iterations of runescape, so this doesnt give us a 1:1 comparison. There's a lot of variables to the article that dont exactly make it clear how it's reaching that 1 million number. This is a problem when comparing the two because FFXIV hits a 600k subscriber count with ACTIVE accounts, meaning that people are actually paying to play the game in the current moment, where the article does not illustrate whether thats the case or not, or if its just 1 million active accounts, which are easier to achieve with it being f2p, which also means defining active. With FFXIV, Active subscriptions = actual players playing the game. Where an active sub in an F2P could literally mean someone logging in once or twice a year for a few days.

Runescape's setup of auto-attacks proved more popular then when it implemented a hotbar and skills.

Again, proved popular to who? The game industry at large, or within its own player base? If were gonna get into niche examples that are harder to compare 1:1, then I can say simply by the fact that most mainstream MMOs (or MMOs in general) rely on multiskill combat, and thats where most players who play MMO are, the 1 button combat system is not popular across MMO players at large.

If you want to say 1 button combat is popular among Runescape players, then what needs to be discussed is how that relates to FFXIV. The one button system might be just fine (and more popular) in Runescape due to other factors within the game. You may not need a complex skill system if other factors come into play that make the game rewarding and challenging (unless Runescape is quite literally just a fancy chatroom at this point, then its more of a social tool than MMO, but thats another discussion). The one button combat system doesnt work for FFXIV because the game isnt designed for it, and switching over to said system would more than likely cause a player base crash, not be a boon to its numbers. This is why in the context of more Mainstream and Modern MMOs, they dont rely on a 1 or two button system. They rely on more advanced combat systems that engage players more. Ill put it this way: If 1 or two button combat was that desired, most MMOs would have this set up. They dont, however. This isnt a 'cause its trendy' thing, but more a 'this is what most players gravitate towards. This is where the market demand is at.

"(Thursday 11th September 2008) The Guinness Book of World Records has recognized RuneScape as the world's largest free massively multiplayer online role-playing game. In addition to being the world's largest free MMO, the game is also the second largest MMO in the world, according to developer Jagex, with over one million paying subscribers and five million players taking advantage of the free game." -
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...st-free-mmorpg

That article from 2008 hurts your earlier article you linked. If they have 1 mil in 2008 with what seems to be 1 game, and have 1 million in 2018 across all platforms, that means their player base is spread and is suffering a loss in players to the specific game.

[Edax]

Again, proved popular to who? The game industry at large, or within its own player base? If were gonna get into niche examples that are harder to compare 1:1, then I can say simply by the fact that most mainstream MMOs (or MMOs in general) rely on multiskill combat, and thats where most players who play MMO are, the 1 button combat system is not popular across MMO players at large.

To itself. Runescape 3 added a hotbar and a bunch of skills, which so fundamentally changed the game that the players demanded the old game's one-click system return. So eventually they uploaded a saved copy of the game from 2004 and called it Old School Runescape, which eventually garnered so much support, it's playerbase eclipsed Runescape 3, despite that one having better graphics and a larger team working on it.

However, if you created to much division between the best players and the average player, yeah thats gonna create problems. But, if you drop the skill floor out completely, youll end up killing your MMO as well. You cant have it so casual that most game content can be completed by literally pushing 2 skill buttons. Here's the rub: You have to find a balance with the average player that they CAN make the leap to Savage and Ultimate stuff with invested effort, while at the same time making sure those tiers are tough for the people who want it tough. This usually means raising the skill floor, not dropping it, on average players over time. The higher level they get, their skill should increase. Not just get stronger simply because they have better stats/gear.

That article from 2008 hurts your earlier article you linked. If they have 1 mil in 2008 with what seems to be 1 game, and have 1 million in 2018 across all platforms, that means their player base is spread and is suffering a loss in players to the specific game.

No it doesn't. You said an MMO couldn't just have 2 buttons, but that wasn't true. You said Runescape was too niche to count, so I asked how many players it needed to have to "count" and you didn't provide one. Looking at the player growth curve over 12 years is a complete distraction from your mistaken point. The fact I had to reach for the Guiness Book of World Records should be enough to point out the Runescape is not obscure of "very niche". You can have it so casual that most game content can be completed by literally pushing 2 skill buttons.

So all this is built on a false premise:

The issue with balancing 'down' is that it is leads to a self feedback loop. Make content easy, average players think that is the average, creates a larger and larger gulf between the hardcore players and the average players, which obviously fuels resentment. This gets worse because average players stop feeling like they can realistically bridge that gap, and when devs try to implement more difficult content, players whove been trained on the easy mode cant cut it effectively and complain its to hard. This usually results in it being made easier which lowers the quality of play on average players, thus creating a larger gap and preventing harder mechanics.

[Melichoir]

To itself. Runescape 3 added a hotbar and a bunch of skills, which so fundamentally changed the game that the players demanded the old game's one-click system return. So eventually they uploaded a saved copy of the game from 2004 and called it Old School Runescape, which eventually garnered so much support, it's playerbase eclipsed Runescape 3, despite that one having better graphics and a larger team working on it.

Can you specifically say that 100% of the reason for this is the hotbar/combat system, or were there other factors involved? As a point, people who have invested time and effort in an MMO are less likely to leave said MMO or gravitate to a new one that is completely different in set up. Im less likely to jump over to EvE online coming from WoW because how they handle gameplay differently. Not that I couldnt, but would I be willing to go to a system that is drastically different and spend a ton of time relearning things. Part of the reason you have WoW players gravitating to FFXIV, is because of how similar they are in many ways. If you played Runescape and were used to a simple combat system, a complex system would be convoluted, especially if it was implemented poorly (not saying it was, but that may also be a factor.)

No it doesn't. You said an MMO couldn't just have 2 buttons, but that wasn't true. You said Runescape was too niche to count, so I asked how many players it needed to have to "count" and you didn't provide one. Looking at the player growth curve over 12 years is a complete distraction from your mistaken point. The fact I had to reach for the Guiness Book of World Records should be enough to point out the Runescape is not obscure of "very niche". You can have it so casual that most game content can be completed by literally pushing 2 skill buttons.

Alright, so Ill grant my initial wording wasnt clear. So Ill clarify it: Modern Mainstream MMOs do not function on 2 button combat systems, and would likely bleed players as a result. Mainstream is defined, as I previously said, by how relevant it is.

Mainstream MMOs are more widely recognized and are more involved in the current dialogue when discussing MMOs (and games at large). This means MMOs can move in and out of mainstream depending their relevance to the game culture at the time.

Now that Ive cleared that point up, let me point this out: Your position is using a niche (as it is one being an outlier of current MMO platforms, not the norm) Legacy MMO that isnt mainstream as an 'example' that an MMO could operate on that. Yes, as you prove, it could. But as I just clarified, modern Mainstream MMOs dont and implementing said system, particularly in FFXIV would end up killing it, not helping it. I predict MOST modern MMOs would end up dying off with that implementation.

The 2008 article point is in reference to you using a "Million subscriber count" as proof of it being more relevant than FFXIV by sub count. Which I was pointing out that if it hit 1 mil subs back in 2008, and it still is at 1 mil subs 2019 across all platforms as implied by the 2018 article, it would mean that runescape itself is most likely not a million subs. This gets more to the point that the more recent 2018 article does not differentiate between a few important factors, which I outlined, so its not a great example if were measuring by sub count alone.

So all this is built on a false premise:

No, its a theory as to why balancing down around easier mechanics at the average level probably end up damaging current MMOs. My original point when put into the context of Main Stream MMOs works just fine. Rather than trying to be "Gotcha!" about teh subject by using a legacy MMO as a prime example that isnt Mainstream nor has had much (if any) impact on games recently, you should try pulling apart what I was theorizing on by pointing out how if they made the game easier and easier around average players that it wouldnt hurt the MMO but would be a boon all the while keeping high end difficult content in game that gets progressively harder. Cause if you had to boil down your position, its pretty much : An old MMO thats still around has 2 button system and because of it, everything else you point out is irrelevant, regardless of the context of the thread at large, FFXIV, Mainstream MMOs and so forth.