The loss of Shield Swipe

[ADVSS]

You mean like Vengeance, right? I can see the reasoning, but if that were truly the case, it shouldn't be applied with a double standard. Button bloat makes more sense, but even there, it was probably one of the more fun abilities in PLD's kit.

It's actually not that difficult to incorporate counterattacks for all tanks. Every tank has an MT and OT on-demand/short recast cooldown. Just tie a counterattack proc to both, such that you get rewarded for mitigating well. Or even use an existing oGCD, and just have it reset on proc.

Yeah Vengeance is a weird one, but I do really like its concept. TBF though, seeing the direction things are going with tanks, I dont think id expect to see the counter attacking even being part of it by 6.0. I was just legitimizing some of the reasoning why theyd remove these skills to begin with, not that I agree with the decisions(which I don't)

[Shurrikhan]

Absolutely agree. but then theres always going to be "cuts" and button bloat is just the easiest reason for those cuts, I suppose. Personally, I'm all for all the tanks having some sort of reactive play, since stuns and such lost their effectiveness after 50

But then, why are we adding bloat?
Rounding out every toolkit to the same AoE combos without giving them stacked action keys... It's not like you need to spend more hotbar slots on AoE to make it more powerful or even more animation-impressive.
Rounding out every toolkit with external mitigation at cost of personal mitigation despite their providing the same throughput (so long as no swap need occur more often than the trickled durations of their co-tanks CDs and AM to make use of said throughput)... Why, when we could instead be making tanks feel more like tanks rather than just DPS with a premium mitigation insurance package?

Yeah Vengeance is a weird one, but I do really like its concept. TBF though, seeing the direction things are going with tanks, I dont think id expect to see the counter attacking even being part of it by 6.0. I was just legitimizing some of the reasoning why theyd remove these skills to begin with, not that I agree with the decisions(which I don't)

Heck, I'd still be more fond of building on Warrior's 2.0 Inner Beast (not the skill, the general concept) theme and having Vengeance provide... no mitigation. Just have it jack up your stats and build Defiance based on %base HP damage taken or what damage would have been taken if not for your (and shields') mitigation and start automatically counter-attacking. Let Defiance and Deliverance resources exist simultaneously, one granting greater healing taken (from all sources) and total HP while the other increases crit chance and bonus. Finally, all Defiance skills heal on Crit. Voila. You push Deliverance as far as you can go to guarantee your next Inner Beast (now effectively a Minus Strike, hitting for more based on missing HP) self-heal via Crit for massive spring-back, with just enough Defiance resource built prior to ensure you can survive the initial hit.

Had they just buffed 2.0 Warrior in its own way, instead of shoeing in the kit components of the current staple prog tank as if that were the end-all-be-all of tanking... I honestly think XIV tanking could have gone amazing places. So much of XIV has been cut so shallow by the plainest sense of "pragmatism" -- void of foresight or any real interest in their own visions for whatever individual component -- though, that it's no surprise that our tanks have ended up as homogenized as they will be in Shadowbringers...

Long story short, I ask myself these same questions. If all else fails, its probably because WAR doesnt have a shield(yet)

What's that shoulder-shaking thing that gives bonus HP then? Sorry, semantics...

[ADVSS]

But then, why are we adding bloat?
Rounding out every toolkit to the same AoE combos without giving them stacked action keys... It's not like you need to spend more hotbar slots on AoE to make it more powerful or even more animation-impressive.
Rounding out every toolkit with external mitigation at cost of personal mitigation despite their providing the same throughput (so long as no swap need occur more often than the trickled durations of their co-tanks CDs and AM to make use of said throughput)... Why, when we could instead be making tanks feel more like tanks rather than just DPS with a premium mitigation insurance package?

Long story short, I ask myself these same questions. If all else fails, its probably because WAR doesnt have a shield(yet)

[Lyth]

I think that the action pruning that happens with each expansion is generally handled poorly. You can't just randomly rip out abilities from a toolkit and hope that everything still works out in the end. If you're going to take away something, integrate it elsewhere so that it doesn't feel like a loss.

There are a few good examples of how to do this correctly. Foresight gone? Here, have Rampart instead. Inner Beast gone? Here, let's change Raw Intuition from a parry cooldown into Sheltron. Convalescence gone? It's an exclusive part of the new upgraded Thrill of Battle now. Hey look, you've supposedly "lost" a bunch of abilities, but in every case, your kit gets stronger.

What's the alternative? Shield Swipe is gone. What do you get for it? No, it's just gone. Sole Survivor? Nah, it's just not there. If they're struggling over hotbar space, I'd much rather they just develop a talent tree system instead. That way, we can do the pruning ourselves. Or at the very least, come up with some sort of glamour system that lets us keep the old animations. Shadowskin had a beautiful animation.

[gman1311]

I think that the action pruning that happens with each expansion is generally handled poorly. You can't just randomly rip out abilities from a toolkit and hope that everything still works out in the end. If you're going to take away something, integrate it elsewhere so that it doesn't feel like a loss.

There are a few good examples of how to do this correctly. Foresight gone? Here, have Rampart instead. Inner Beast gone? Here, let's change Raw Intuition from a parry cooldown into Sheltron. Convalescence gone? It's an exclusive part of the new upgraded Thrill of Battle now. Hey look, you've supposedly "lost" a bunch of abilities, but in every case, your kit gets stronger.

What's the alternative? Shield Swipe is gone. What do you get for it? No, it's just gone. Sole Survivor? Nah, it's just not there. If they're struggling over hotbar space, I'd much rather they just develop a talent tree system instead. That way, we can do the pruning ourselves. Or at the very least, come up with some sort of glamour system that lets us keep the old animations. Shadowskin had a beautiful animation.

You’re making it sound like war got a straight up buff in their defense kit, while the other tanks got the shaft?

[Zarkovitch]

Man I'll miss it in 5.0

[Lyth]

...

You mean that you didn't notice it yourself? It's been pretty blatant across all the expansions. The one thing that won't get homogenised is the invulns, unsurprisingly.

[gman1311]

You mean that you didn't notice it yourself? It's been pretty blatant across all the expansions. The one thing that won't get homogenised is the invulns, unsurprisingly.

But the invulns have strengths and weaknesses, and gives tanks choice on how to deal with certain mechanics.

[Fluffernuff]

I'm aware of how Excog works. I'm just wondering why you'd want that particular design, especially seeing as you'd essentially be sacrificing the usefulness of TBN against any significant tankbuster by turning it into a reactive heal, all for the added bonus of... overhealing.

you're taking what im saying literally and then some. I did not ask for excog or a heal. Im asking for the same treatment as excog. The same basic mechanic; like they even did for sole survivor. I want it to work like excog. I *dont* want it to be excog.

I don't know how else I can word it. I want the resource generation regardless of if the shield breaks or not. I use TBN, I get a bubble. If bubble breaks, I get resource. If bubble doesnt break, I get resource.

...I use TBN, I get resource. Period. Thats what I want.


in the exact same way that when you use excog, you get a heal. period.

[Kabooa]

in the exact same way that when you use excog, you get a heal. period.

Why even give TBN a cost then?