The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[CazzT]

I'm not prepared to respect a tank that's going to take much too long and hold up multiple other people.
We've all been in here hundreds of times, lets get a move on.

Depends on the situation, really. If it's a tank post-60 decked in full Shire gear running tam tara and pulling like a snail, I'll ask why they're pulling so slow. I had a parent who was letting their youngun play their character. It was a great run and we all had fun. If it's an adult that gives back attitude, then I'll encourage them to pull faster and let the other group members decide to kick or not. It takes a lot for me to kick. And I know, that one case I mentioned is a one-off. I still remember it and it still makes me smile.

It's funny, really... I'm a major uncaring arse at my job (kinda have to be) but in FFXIV I'm extremely patient and nice.

[Leonus]

There really are people who put tanking on a pedestal....

I for the life of me can't see why. When I main tanked I found it pretty boring actually. War was fun though.

I feel as though tanks should serve the group, not lead it. The tank should be obliging the group, not the group obliging the tank. People's mentality seems backwards. You lead the charge, not the group. If you think you lead the group because you're a tank, you have no idea what leading actually is.

[Yllania]

Just because I dont pull for the tank doesnt mean Im putting them on a pedestal, really now. Im the most important person in the party to me.

[Penthea]

Just because I dont pull for the tank doesnt mean Im putting them on a pedestal, really now. Im the most important person in the party to me.

I don't pull because I don't like dying. Pretty simple.

[Liam_Harper]

Fair question for those who feel they have the right to pull (or outright kick) if a tank is too slow:

Define too slow. One pack at a time? Two packs? Anything less than every mob straight to the wall regardless of gear, healer ability or dps? Genuinely curious.

[van_arn]

Fair question for those who feel they have the right to pull (or outright kick) if a tank is too slow:

Define too slow. One pack at a time? Two packs? Anything less than every mob straight to the wall regardless of gear, healer ability or dps? Genuinely curious.

The party decides all of the above. Individuals don't kick.

[Mixt]

And we are back to the whole "Wiping the group by demanding bigger pulls than the tank or healer can handle, then bitching about it when everybody dies and kicking the tank over your own failures instead of admitting you were in the wrong" thing.

No, tanks are not invulnerable, we do not have infinite hit points, we do not have invulns that can be up 24/7, there are limits to what cooldowns can do.

"Use cooldowns lol!" says the ignorant DPS to the tank who is already using cooldowns and getting their teeth kicked in anyway.

"OMG WE WIPED! KICK THE TANK!" screams the DPS who demanded bigger pulls when the healer was already struggling as it was, because there are the odd pulls who hit like a train, especially when content is new. I'm looking at you Hell's Lid.

And people wonder why their ques are so long. Well gee golly, maybe being blamed for things they have no control over because the tank is the designated scapegoat whenever the DPS misjudges and get everybody killed might have something to do with it?

Having the DPS run ahead and megapull on you, culminating in you taking ridiculous amounts of damage per GCD even through tank stance and Rampart, then dying because the healer could not keep up, swiftly followed by a party wipe, then getting blamed for it and then kicked by the loudmouth of a DPS who did the pull is going to turn a lot of people off tanking.

Heck, even if the death is caused by the healer not healing because they are too busy DPS'ing, it's still the tank who get's blamed by the group when they drop dead, been there, had that happen.

[van_arn]

And we are back to the whole "Wiping the group by demanding bigger pulls than the tank or healer can handle, then bitching about it when everybody dies and kicking the tank over your own failures instead of admitting you were in the wrong" thing.

No, tanks are not invulnerable, we do not have infinite hit points, we do not have invulns that can be up 24/7, there are limits to what cooldowns can do.

"Use cooldowns lol!" says the ignorant DPS to the tank who is already using cooldowns and getting their teeth kicked in anyway.

"OMG WE WIPED! KICK THE TANK!" screams the DPS who demanded bigger pulls when the healer was already struggling as it was, because there are the odd pulls who hit like a train, especially when content is new. I'm looking at you Hell's Lid.

And people wonder why their ques are so long. Well gee golly, maybe being blamed for things they have no control over because the tank is the designated scapegoat whenever the DPS misjudges and get everybody killed might have something to do with it?

Having the DPS run ahead and megapull on you, culminating in you taking ridiculous amounts of damage per GCD even through tank stance and Rampart, then dying because the healer could not keep up, swiftly followed by a party wipe, then getting blamed for it and then kicked by the loudmouth of a DPS who did the pull is going to turn a lot of people off tanking.

Heck, even if the death is caused by the healer not healing because they are too busy DPS'ing, it's still the tank who get's blamed by the group when they drop dead, been there, had that happen.

Usually when a tank gets kicked, it's because the party knows it can handle more than the tank is picking up.

It's fine for a party to kick a tank.

It's also fine for the tank to quit tanking if they take it personally; making a party work is a pillar of tanking, and if they get kicked by the party they can't handle that pillar.

The only suckers here are the DPS that stay in a queue for 50 minutes. Don't ever do that. Make friends, get a better FC, or find something better to do with your time.

[OrangeCrystarium]

DPS and healer players often have these lofty expectations of tanks the moment they pop into the instance. They expect to be grouped with the god-gifted tank who knows every mob down to a T and has perfect placement. God forbid you accidentally miss an enemy in that summoner's shadow flare, because they're going to tear into you for it. I could go on with the list of encounters I've experienced but I won't.

What I will say is that one of the main issues this whole unspoken rule originates from is the lack of communication between both parties. Often times tanks expect the healer to cope with the task of managing a mass pull, wall-to-wall, while other times the healer will run ahead of me as a tank and probably die because I find their approach to be ignorant as hell. For goodness sake people, you're not playing with bots when you queue into the dungeon, you're playing with real people on the other side of the screen. At least communicate any desires for the pulls plus inform your group, preferably at the start of the dungeon, if you're inexperienced and would rather smaller pulls. You're not always going to be grouped with these veteran players who post informative topics about class optimisation, theorycrafting and whatnot. You will meet some rather inexperienced players where a little bit of patience is required.

Yes, some will say "But how can I have any sympathy for people who make it to the end of the current endgame who refuse to learn their class and remember every single mechanic type?" Listen, we all want to complete that daily expert roulette at the end of the day, and typically without any stress included. How do you avoid that from becoming a problem? Well I don't start with immediately initiating a vote kick because Paladin McSwordOath doesn't hold aggro at all times. How trigger happy must you be to live with that kind of mentality? Would you act the same way if you were playing side by side with these people? Kindness goes a long way. However, I do understand that votekicking is sometimes a necessity when the situation is definitely dire. I think it should be a last resort though. Just my two coppers.

[Lynesse]

Snip.

There's a lot of truth to what you say.

I'd also like to point out the number of times I've entered a dungeon, said: "Big pulls or small pulls?" Or "Do you want single pulls, double pulls, or 'oh god, please heal me'?"

And I've gotten zero response.

People need to be open to talking, and also be open to hearing one another.