The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[Penthea]

Reading a few reddit posts, and also having some discussions with FC mates who pull for 'slow tanks', is there really an 'unwritten rule' that only tanks pull?

It's not an unwritten rule. It's common sense.

It's also common sense to TALK to someone before taking the situation into your own hands when you know very well that you're not a tank.

I have seen wipes happen because someone got impatient with a slow tank, pulled, and the tank didn't start tanking because they were legitimately afk. The last time I saw this happen the tank's cat pulled the plug of their keyboard so they were fixing it. Had that impatient player simply spoken to the tank they would have quickly found out they were afk. We laughed it off but I have seen other instances of this sort of thing happening lead to arguments.

[MirielleLavandre]

The only thing this tells me is you've not really tried it yourself.

Oh, I agree with you that it is totally doable in less than expert content -- I've done it myself in some of the lower level 70 dungeons. However, I guess I just saw you saying that tanks were not needed or irrelevant and took issue with this since I've yet to be able to heal through or complete the latest expert dungeon without a tank. I just figure if you say that tanks are not needed, that you'd be able to prove this by having fun and completing the latest expert dungeon w/ just you healing and 3 dps, again in under 30 mins since that is twice what a good run with a capable tank would do. Because if a tank is truly irrelevant, that means the most relevant content can be done without them.

[Hash_Browns]

Funnily enough, tanks... or to be specific, WAR and PLD *can* clear major pulls without a healer right now. And even entire boss fights, though PLD with a bit more effort than WAR. MP management and all. Neither want to DO IT of course, DPS and all. But I've both seen it and done it myself on request and when healers have D/Ced. Is that grounds for treating healers like second rate citizens?

It's almost like the story/leveling content is so dumbed down roles are more of a convenience then anything, eh?

Personally speaking I've seen tanks kill bosses from start to finish (Zenos, I was in the dungeon - and due to poor communication from both me and the tank, I ended up getting cleaved in the throat. Tank decided to try and just see if they could continue and kill him, and it worked.)

If they are comfortable without one, don't bring one. If the healer in the group isn't DPSing during the time they aren't healing, kick them. Being honest a healer isn't worth their weight in salt if they can't DPS in the current leveling content with how easy it truly is ATM.

[Mistyregions]

Thing is you are right being removed from a group is not a negative so no need to get annoyed or upset about being removed. It is still adult like behavior so speak to remove someone that simply does not gel with the group. It is not childish to not want play with someone that has a different play style.

I get difference in play style, but demanding all players who tank to be held to a standard outside of game design is childish. Not to mention it completely disregards their own personal preference.

I'm saying that as adults you deal with behavior on a daily basis and you just deal with it because people are human and you will never find me vote kicking someone for playing the game they want. It's a hobby.

[van_arn]

You are missing the point of the ability to kick, thus you are abusing it in a childish manner.

You are supposed to kick bad actors because it's a negative gain, griefing, abusive behavior, offline, etc. It by in all rights is supposed to be a punishment, that's a core tenant of democracy, this is not the case with the current system. Its is a meritocracy and thus tanks suffer no ill consequences.

Kicking a tank, playing the game as intended under the orginal design is not a net loss to the tank at all, it's a net loss to yourself and the other players. You must wait for another tank, by the time that's happened you could have been done. Meanwhile the other tank you kicked is probably half way through the new dungeon they re q into. Thus it's ethire a zero gain/ zero loss or positive gain because overall they spent less time for the same rewards you receive plus not having to play outside of their box, and most importantly not playing with people who push expectations on a role, instead of doing it themselves like an adult.

I'm sure you are going to strawman my comment by only quoting a specific phrase I mentioned because a constructively conservative is lost upon you.

What's childish is expecting a party to put up with you when they don't like you.

Kicks are there to resolve disputes before they happen. If you're playing in a way that removes you from your party's good graces, you're going to get kicked. This is intentional.

You're also overestimating the amount of time it takes to replace a tank, not to mention how much happier the party that you were kicked from is when you're removed. If there is a penalty to time -- which isn't always, thanks to healers being able to take your job -- it is gladly paid to get rid of the player who has left the party's good graces.

And honestly? If you're in a situation where you're replacing a terrible tank you'll probably make that time back with the replacement's inevitably increased pace.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

It happens due to the game design. The reason it didn't happen in FF11 is cause DPS would get smacked if the Tank wasn't already preparing for that enmity and you could only fight one mob at a time or two if you had a brilliant EXP party going on.

[MirielleLavandre]

If there is a penalty to time -- which isn't always, thanks to healers being able to take your job -- it is gladly paid to get rid of the player who has left the party's good graces.

See this right here is what I mean... can a healer take the tanks job in the most current expert dungeon -- please show me ^^ I will gladly admit that I'm in the wrong when I see a party of 3 dps and 1 healer (preferably you or Healer Adjust) complete Ghimlyt Dark in under 30 minutes. Again, this is twice the amount of time it would take with a decent tank, assuming it can be done at all. Of course, if you're @ 410 that is already +50 ilvl over the minimum...not being adversarial, but just genuinely curious if it can be done.

[Tsukino]

I, for one, am not nearly stupid enough to risk making someone who gets instant queues mad after I spent 45 minutes in one as a damage dealer.

[Awha]

I get difference in play style, but demanding all players who tank to be held to a standard outside of game design is childish. Not to mention it completely disregards their own personal preference.

I'm saying that as adults you deal with behavior on a daily basis and you just deal with it because people are human and you will never find me vote kicking someone for playing the game they want. It's a hobby.

For me it comes down to that one persons personal preference should not override the collective groups because the game itself does not set mass pulling as the standard. It is a hobby and sometimes the amount of time people put into the same hobby may differ, and thus they have certain expectations. Just as people have different opinions as to what is fun. If my view of fun does not match the group I am not going to try and force the group to bend to my will, I will either adjust or leave. For me I think it is childish to think that one persons preference should inherently hold more value because they groups standards do not fall in line with game design.

Maybe I am just an odd ball though.

[Mistyregions]

What's childish is expecting a party to put up with you when they don't like you.

Kicks are there to resolve disputes before they happen. If you're playing in a way that removes you from your party's good graces, you're going to get kicked. This is intentional.

You're also overestimating the amount of time it takes to replace a tank, not to mention how much happier the party that you were kicked from is when you're removed. If there is a penalty to time -- which isn't always, thanks to healers being able to take your job -- it is gladly paid to get rid of the player who has left the party's good graces.

And honestly? If you're in a situation where you're replacing a terrible tank you'll probably make that time back with the replacement's inevitably increased pace.

Are this is the disconnect, I don't expect anyone to play with me if they dont like me, I agree.

Not liking me because I play how the game is intended or not the way YOU want me to play is childish and is something I only see in daycare and preschool.

Even middle schoolers grow out of that phase.