The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[Mixt]

And we are back to the whole "Wiping the group by demanding bigger pulls than the tank or healer can handle, then bitching about it when everybody dies and kicking the tank over your own failures instead of admitting you were in the wrong" thing.

No, tanks are not invulnerable, we do not have infinite hit points, we do not have invulns that can be up 24/7, there are limits to what cooldowns can do.

"Use cooldowns lol!" says the ignorant DPS to the tank who is already using cooldowns and getting their teeth kicked in anyway.

"OMG WE WIPED! KICK THE TANK!" screams the DPS who demanded bigger pulls when the healer was already struggling as it was, because there are the odd pulls who hit like a train, especially when content is new. I'm looking at you Hell's Lid.

And people wonder why their ques are so long. Well gee golly, maybe being blamed for things they have no control over because the tank is the designated scapegoat whenever the DPS misjudges and get everybody killed might have something to do with it?

Having the DPS run ahead and megapull on you, culminating in you taking ridiculous amounts of damage per GCD even through tank stance and Rampart, then dying because the healer could not keep up, swiftly followed by a party wipe, then getting blamed for it and then kicked by the loudmouth of a DPS who did the pull is going to turn a lot of people off tanking.

Heck, even if the death is caused by the healer not healing because they are too busy DPS'ing, it's still the tank who get's blamed by the group when they drop dead, been there, had that happen.

[van_arn]

And we are back to the whole "Wiping the group by demanding bigger pulls than the tank or healer can handle, then bitching about it when everybody dies and kicking the tank over your own failures instead of admitting you were in the wrong" thing.

No, tanks are not invulnerable, we do not have infinite hit points, we do not have invulns that can be up 24/7, there are limits to what cooldowns can do.

"Use cooldowns lol!" says the ignorant DPS to the tank who is already using cooldowns and getting their teeth kicked in anyway.

"OMG WE WIPED! KICK THE TANK!" screams the DPS who demanded bigger pulls when the healer was already struggling as it was, because there are the odd pulls who hit like a train, especially when content is new. I'm looking at you Hell's Lid.

And people wonder why their ques are so long. Well gee golly, maybe being blamed for things they have no control over because the tank is the designated scapegoat whenever the DPS misjudges and get everybody killed might have something to do with it?

Having the DPS run ahead and megapull on you, culminating in you taking ridiculous amounts of damage per GCD even through tank stance and Rampart, then dying because the healer could not keep up, swiftly followed by a party wipe, then getting blamed for it and then kicked by the loudmouth of a DPS who did the pull is going to turn a lot of people off tanking.

Heck, even if the death is caused by the healer not healing because they are too busy DPS'ing, it's still the tank who get's blamed by the group when they drop dead, been there, had that happen.

Usually when a tank gets kicked, it's because the party knows it can handle more than the tank is picking up.

It's fine for a party to kick a tank.

It's also fine for the tank to quit tanking if they take it personally; making a party work is a pillar of tanking, and if they get kicked by the party they can't handle that pillar.

The only suckers here are the DPS that stay in a queue for 50 minutes. Don't ever do that. Make friends, get a better FC, or find something better to do with your time.

[Liam_Harper]

Usually when a tank gets kicked, it's because the party knows it can handle more than the tank is picking up.

It's fine for a party to kick a tank.

Aye, the key word is "usually".

The majority groups don't mind one bit if a tank isn't pulling wall to wall as long as the pace is reasonably smooth. If a healer feels they can handle far more, there's nothing wrong with requesting the tank pulls bigger packs. It might even be a learning experience. If the tank is hostile towards this or doesn't communicate, it's fair to kick them. Similarly it's fine to kick a dps who pulls more than a tank or healer can handle without communicating and reacts with hostility.

I imagine the argument in the thread is that half the posters are imagining those nightmare runs with hostile dps and terrible healers running around wildly and wiping the group and hurling abuse at the tank before kicking them and interpreting the comments here as "that's good, it should be like that".

Just communicate with your group, be willing to do your best and learn and 99% of the time you'll be fine.

[Jimmymagic]

LMAO this is entertaining.. Healer mains bias tank hater and impetuous argument about how/when to kick...Take what you can use and leave the rest....

So, a lot of players are jumping on Van_Arnie here, I disagree with that mentality, however, not everyone is right or wrong. When I tank I never go in assuming the healer is competent or dps for that matter. I ask the healer if they are ok with large pulls, if so then play according if I am unable to aggro then please kick me. I don't wanna suffer anymore than you do and besides the group is more important than the individual which leads me to kicking healers. Most healers that I have played with do not heal first they dps and some dungeon you can get away with that no big deal but healers that want control and tank themselves that is not healer that is a wanna be tank with severe ego and no consideration beyond any motive. People usually won't kick healers because of que time but there is large number of bad healers as well as bad tanks

Vote kick is a tool to be used, I do not take it personally when healer main s want to kick me because I don t have to. I'm surprised no one really suggesting PF for training tanks that are new. I hate going to a dungeon holding people up because im new and i don't wanna pull large. To me Tank everything even if skiddish about the dungeon. Nothing wrong with practice but there is when using roulettes. See I consider other people time too not just my own. IMHO no player regardless of job/class and skill level should hold others hostage for dailies, duty completion, raids, poetics, etc....Make a party finder if don't feel confident doing large pulls. As Van said get friends and/or FC to help with training (which is what I did for new content). I don t care for the "stop playing mmo's solution." Adapt, have some effort and you can play with other s at faster pace.

When I first started i did small pulls and moved like a snail I got suggestions first before getting kicked a few times and of course I took it personally until I got a little better. I started pulling more and more learning positioning, MAKE SURE MY GEAR WAS RESPECTABLE AND NOT BROKEN OR UNDERLEVEL, talk to healer when necessary and also to not talk when necessary. KNOW the mechanics of said dungeon. All of this took sometime but since I dropped my ego at the login screen I've enjoyed playing a lot more

I have learned also that you better get some thick skin when doing group content. Don't be so sensitive or your gonna have a hard time playing this or any other mmo.
Every complaining opinion on this thread has at least one solution. its just people don't agree which is difference in playstyle thus votekick.

Come expansion, if SE does implement all the changes Main healers will not be able to tank. Tanks will have no excuses for holding agro. DPS's will actually have accountability and will no longer hide behind poor play. Will see.

[Mixt]

Aye, the key word is "usually".

The majority groups don't mind one bit if a tank isn't pulling wall to wall as long as the pace is reasonably smooth. If a healer feels they can handle far more, there's nothing wrong with requesting the tank pulls bigger packs. It might even be a learning experience. If the tank is hostile towards this or doesn't communicate, it's fair to kick them. Similarly it's fine to kick a dps who pulls more than a tank or healer can handle without communicating and reacts with hostility.

I imagine the argument in the thread is that half the posters are imagining those nightmare runs with hostile dps and terrible healers running around wildly and wiping the group and hurling abuse at the tank before kicking them and interpreting the comments here as "that's good, it should be like that".

Just communicate with your group, be willing to do your best and learn and 99% of the time you'll be fine.

Yes this, exactly that.

Some healers and DPS are just...ugh, and then they hurl abuse at the tank over things they themselves caused.

[OrangeCrystarium]

DPS and healer players often have these lofty expectations of tanks the moment they pop into the instance. They expect to be grouped with the god-gifted tank who knows every mob down to a T and has perfect placement. God forbid you accidentally miss an enemy in that summoner's shadow flare, because they're going to tear into you for it. I could go on with the list of encounters I've experienced but I won't.

What I will say is that one of the main issues this whole unspoken rule originates from is the lack of communication between both parties. Often times tanks expect the healer to cope with the task of managing a mass pull, wall-to-wall, while other times the healer will run ahead of me as a tank and probably die because I find their approach to be ignorant as hell. For goodness sake people, you're not playing with bots when you queue into the dungeon, you're playing with real people on the other side of the screen. At least communicate any desires for the pulls plus inform your group, preferably at the start of the dungeon, if you're inexperienced and would rather smaller pulls. You're not always going to be grouped with these veteran players who post informative topics about class optimisation, theorycrafting and whatnot. You will meet some rather inexperienced players where a little bit of patience is required.

Yes, some will say "But how can I have any sympathy for people who make it to the end of the current endgame who refuse to learn their class and remember every single mechanic type?" Listen, we all want to complete that daily expert roulette at the end of the day, and typically without any stress included. How do you avoid that from becoming a problem? Well I don't start with immediately initiating a vote kick because Paladin McSwordOath doesn't hold aggro at all times. How trigger happy must you be to live with that kind of mentality? Would you act the same way if you were playing side by side with these people? Kindness goes a long way. However, I do understand that votekicking is sometimes a necessity when the situation is definitely dire. I think it should be a last resort though. Just my two coppers.

[Lynesse]

Snip.

There's a lot of truth to what you say.

I'd also like to point out the number of times I've entered a dungeon, said: "Big pulls or small pulls?" Or "Do you want single pulls, double pulls, or 'oh god, please heal me'?"

And I've gotten zero response.

People need to be open to talking, and also be open to hearing one another.

[Shurrikhan]

DPS and healer players often have these lofty expectations of tanks the moment they pop into the instance. They expect to be grouped with the god-gifted tank who knows every mob down to a T and has perfect placement.

The sad thing is when you are that tank and, mid-sprint, will mention list your pull sizes and when to hold Diversion so you can drop tank stance throughout the AoE pull, can remind other players of their utilities (Goad, Mana Shift) per their CD, but only then players start thinking "Well, this is so fast now, if I pulled even more mobs this would go even faster!" despite that there is in fact a net speed loss when including the two extra mobs they pulled when you specifically said not to while sprinting up to the first...

It's weird how some DPS and Healers can so well understand optimal pacing and know how to pull, or at least respond to target marks to pull on the tank's silent command, to best achieve that while others assume that in all cases bigger is better (even when, say, you'd still need two pulls to reach the boss regardless and splitting it the other way simply gets DPS one-shot by instant-cleaves). Heck, there are some that still don't seem to understand that tank stance is virtually worthless in single-target in the face of Excog, especially when Shelltron or TBN and at least Rampart is already being used on every tankbuster, or that it costs GCDs to, say, swap between Oaths meaning that if you decide to continue to focus target a single mob in 5+mob AoE after pulling, rescue's going to be few GCDs away unless you come into Cover distance.

DPS: "Gotta go fast." "Why you in Shield Oath, bra?" *After pulling from not following listed target order, which already accounted for DoT efficiency* "I don't want to be that guy, but maybe you should be in Shield Oath?"

I say all this, but even then most of my non-tank pullers are in fact fully competent. It's just that they seemed comprised on one part <people who actually know what they're doing, including tracking their party's CDs> and one part <'faster is always better' bro-scientists>, and the difference, when it shows, can be a bit unnerving. So when you get four near-perfect speedruns via the former only to run into a miserably slow attempted speedrun with the latter, it wears on you.

[miraidensetsu]

Reading a few reddit posts, and also having some discussions with FC mates who pull for 'slow tanks', is there really an 'unwritten rule' that only tanks pull? My main in SB was PLD (before using WHM to help friends), and I always have pulled wall to wall or at least until I got gated out. However, with Gunbreaker coming soon, I think that there will be a lot of new or newer tanks who may not be as comfortable with huge pulls.

I'm ok with tank pulling small. But I'm not OK with DPS pulling for the tank. I just let him take care of his own HP. If he dies, oh, well (and normally the tank with me shirks that DPS).

[oumura]

i am a man of class. if you want to go ahead and pull for me. you can also tank it. ill also tell the healer that a man with such spirit does not need heals for he is a man over all men and heals are just an insult to his manhood. but really ill tell em to stop. if they dont ill just request a kick since they are being disruptive to the run.