The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[van_arn]

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

The only thing this tells me is you've not really tried it yourself. It's doable in most content, but at the expert tier it's hit or miss depending on the boss. That said, tanks are an unlimited resources at expert tier, and by the time you make it to the next boss you'll have a replacement ready. Not to mention tanks have absolutely no excuse at expert tier not to multipull, so the kicks are exceptionally easy.

If you'd like to get started for yourself, though, try Snowcloak. The bosses are simple until Fenrir, at which point you'll have fun managing your healing and threat over an extended period. You can also try more bizarre party compositions in other dungeons, such as three healers and a ninja "tank," or just try kicking your tank and seeing how your party does on the boss. It's difficult to express just how fun it can be to use your skills in ways you don't typically use them, like in the worst case using raise as a tankbuster mitigation tool.

As I've said before, it's not about what's fastest or most efficient-- efficiency is often the death of fun, anyway. It's about getting rid of an undesirable from your group, and you all agreeing to stick together to the end. Without that undesirable, just because you can. It just so happens that for a lot of the time, it's hard to tell a tank is missing outside of the damage spikes.

[MirielleLavandre]

The only thing this tells me is you've not really tried it yourself.

Oh, I agree with you that it is totally doable in less than expert content -- I've done it myself in some of the lower level 70 dungeons. However, I guess I just saw you saying that tanks were not needed or irrelevant and took issue with this since I've yet to be able to heal through or complete the latest expert dungeon without a tank. I just figure if you say that tanks are not needed, that you'd be able to prove this by having fun and completing the latest expert dungeon w/ just you healing and 3 dps, again in under 30 mins since that is twice what a good run with a capable tank would do. Because if a tank is truly irrelevant, that means the most relevant content can be done without them.

[linay]

As I've said before, it's not about what's fastest or most efficient-- efficiency is often the death of fun, anyway. It's about getting rid of an undesirable from your group, and you all agreeing to stick together to the end. Without that undesirable, just because you can.

Then what makes the tank undesirable?

On another note, I've seen many tanks pull one at a time at both leveling and expert dungeons without seeing any vote to kick prompt, so I think the idea that those tanks should get kicked is actually shared by a minority of people. The only one time someone disagrees, they actually left on their own without even prompting a vote.

[Penthea]

Then what makes the tank undesirable?

On another note, I've seen many tanks pull one at a time at both leveling and expert dungeons without seeing any vote to kick prompt, so I think the idea that those tanks should get kicked is actually shared by a minority of people. The only one time someone disagrees, they actually left on their own without even prompting a vote.

I only ever see tanks get kicked if their tanking is so bad the instance is excruciatingly slow or impossible. And even then it's rare. People often have to wait a long time for a queue pop, especially dps, so most of the time people are slow to kick tanks unless the situation becomes hopeless.

[linay]

I only ever see tanks get kicked if their tanking is so bad the instance is excruciatingly slow or impossible. And even then it's rare. People often have to wait a long time for a queue pop, especially dps, so most of the time people are slow to kick tanks unless the situation becomes hopeless.

Yeah, I think that's usually the case for that very reason. Of course, I've no doubt there are cases where you get people get so worked up about single pull that a kick happens, but it's never been in my experience at least.

[Vahlnir]

Yeah, I think that's usually the case for that very reason. Of course, I've no doubt there are cases where you get people get so worked up about single pull that a kick happens, but it's never been in my experience at least.

I have never seen a tank kicked just for being slow. Like a lot of things lately, this is something I have only seen or heard of exclusively on the forums. I don't doubt that a few isolated incidents have happened though. Anything and everything can and will happen in an MMO. But usually if a tank is slow, sometimes someone may say "you can pull more if you want" but otherwise there is generally a silent acceptance that the run may not be as fast as some people hoped. Sometimes the party takes it upon itself to speed things up by pulling for the tank but that usually isn't to their benefit. It makes things take longer. I don't see that happen very often either to be honest, but I have indeed seen people pull for the tank before.

[linay]

I have never seen a tank kicked just for being slow. Like a lot of things lately, this is something I have only seen or heard of exclusively on the forums. I don't doubt that a few isolated incidents have happened though. Anything and everything can and will happen in an MMO. But usually if a tank is slow, sometimes someone may say "you can pull more if you want" but otherwise there is generally a silent acceptance that the run may not be as fast as some people hoped. Sometimes the party takes it upon itself to speed things up but that usually isn't to their benefit. It makes things take longer.

Indeed, that's a good thing with having a lot of different people to play.

[Nedkel]

Yeah, I think that's usually the case for that very reason. Of course, I've no doubt there are cases where you get people get so worked up about single pull that a kick happens, but it's never been in my experience at least.

We have finally made it to a point where forums has less acceptance over underperforming players than actual people playing this game. xDD

I do believe its thanks to the console players who do not want to argue over silly things, we need more of them, would be cool if this game came out on xbox.

If they are comfortable without one, don't bring one. If the healer in the group isn't DPSing during the time they aren't healing, kick them. Being honest a healer isn't worth their weight in salt if they can't DPS in the current leveling content with how easy it truly is ATM.

You cant kick healers for not dpsing, it is against the ToS and healers in the minds of developers are not forced to DPS.
Kicking a healer for that could give you a ban.

[ShariusTC]

I dont even bother to pull more for tank if they are slow pull, simple im not interest, but on other hand i got an endless ruin 3 spam macro incase tank slow pull so i can watch netflix why we slowly kill each mob in that pull, easy and funtime indeed

[Hash_Browns]

You cant kick healers for not dpsing, it is against the ToS and healers in the minds of developers are not forced to DPS.
Kicking a healer for that could give you a ban.

We are going to get into the "difference in playstyle" vote kick, and that's a box that really shouldn't be opened in here. Enough discussion going on as is.