The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[Mistyregions]

Tank can't lead if they aren't the tank anymore. That's simply how it is.
Majority rules - not the tank. If the tank wants to pull slow, and the rest of the group doesn't, they will just end up getting a new tank. You can't lead the group you aren't in anymore.

Also all roles are expected to DPS, not just the DPS roles.

I just covered this in another comment, in a real world it would work that way because of repercussions/ consequences.

But as a tank, you can kick me. Absolutely nothing can or will happen to me for playing the game as intended. No ban, same q time, same bonus, same everything. Thus it is not a democracy. I will continue leading, and I will lead adults not children.

[Fluffernuff]

snip

Funnily enough, tanks... or to be specific, WAR and PLD *can* clear major pulls without a healer right now. And even entire boss fights, though PLD with a bit more effort than WAR. MP management and all. Neither want to DO IT of course, DPS and all. But I've both seen it and done it myself on request and when healers have D/Ced. Is that grounds for treating healers like second rate citizens?

Also to clarify, im not throwing you under the bus or anything, I just find the silent animosity to be far too much. if you want someone to do something, ask first. this shouldn't be a hard concept. the response shouldnt be to do your thing, make things harder, and then goad or talk down to someone like theyre a dog. That's pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me

[MirielleLavandre]

Also to clarify, im not throwing you under the bus or anything, I just find the silent animosity to be far too much. if you want someone to do something, ask first. this shouldn't be a hard concept. the response shouldnt be to do your thing, make things harder, and then goad or talk down to someone like theyre a dog. That's pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me

Not sure if this is in response to my post, but what animosity? I think I've not said anything at all in my OP or in any of my posts to appear disgusting or to goad or talk down to anyone?

[Mistyregions]

I'm saying that's perfectly fine; the goal is to merely get rid of the person that got voted out. You're someone else's problem at that point.

You are missing the point of the ability to kick, thus you are abusing it in a childish manner.

You are supposed to kick bad actors because it's a negative gain, griefing, abusive behavior, offline, etc. It by in all rights is supposed to be a punishment, that's a core tenant of democracy, this is not the case with the current system. Its is a meritocracy and thus tanks suffer no ill consequences.

Kicking a tank, playing the game as intended under the orginal design is not a net loss to the tank at all, it's a net loss to yourself and the other players. You must wait for another tank, by the time that's happened you could have been done. Meanwhile the other tank you kicked is probably half way through the new dungeon they re q into. Thus it's ethire a zero gain/ zero loss or positive gain because overall they spent less time for the same rewards you receive plus not having to play outside of their box, and most importantly not playing with people who push expectations on a role, instead of doing it themselves like an adult.

I'm sure you are going to strawman my comment by only quoting a specific phrase I mentioned because a constructively conservative is lost upon you.

[Fluffernuff]

Not sure if this is in response to my post, but what animosity? I think I've not said anything at all in my OP or in any of my posts to appear disgusting or to goad or talk down to anyone?

I was meaning in general- the responses here toward slow tanks. not you specifically. i've skimmed too much and skipped over the indiviudal infighting, so i apologize for missing nuggets of the discussion. Slow tanks need to be kicked on sight sort of thing. sure, at the end of the day it doesnt really affect too much, but... are they really the toxic one in that situation. i mostly piggybacked off you since your response seemed tailored against deflecting me, and I wasnt calling you out. I was commenting on this thread and I apologize for the confusion and misunderstanding

[MirielleLavandre]

I was meaning in general- the responses here toward slow tanks. not you specifically. i've skimmed too much and skipped over the indiviudal infighting, so i apologize for missing nuggets of the discussion. Slow tanks need to be kicked on sight sort of thing. sure, at the end of the day it doesnt really affect too much, but... are they really the toxic one in that situation. i mostly piggybacked off you since your response seemed tailored against deflecting me, and I wasnt calling you out. I was commenting on this thread and I apologize for the confusion and misunderstanding

Ooooh - I wasn't meaning to deflect and actually I think we both think the same ^^ Slow tanks shouldn't be punished since maybe they aren't at the comfort level to full pull and such ^^

[Shurrikhan]

I just covered this in another comment, in a real world it would work that way because of repercussions/ consequences.

But as a tank, you can kick me. Absolutely nothing can or will happen to me for playing the game as intended. No ban, same q time, same bonus, same everything. Thus it is not a democracy. I will continue leading, and I will lead adults not children.

You can continue attempting to lead, yes. True, you'll get another instant queue by which to play house with another group if you so choose. But you will not be able to actually continue leading, as you would say, adults, so long as their playing competently puts them in conflict with you. You'll simply continue getting kicked, attempting to lead poorly, and being kicked again, until you find a group that is sufficiently inundated to not bother removing you. Whether you'd call those people "adults" -- at the exclusion of anyone who signs up for something to complete that something, and expects that their timing doing something will be spent with the goal of completing it -- or not is up to you.

Funnily enough, tanks... or to be specific, WAR and PLD *can* clear major pulls without a healer right now.

I personally find DRK the best for the really large pulls. Enter with Blood Weapon, Delirium, TBN, and full Blood at the ready and you're nigh unkillable for 20 seconds off self-heals alone. Add to that BP, LD, and DRK's mitigation suite and I've damn near soloed large Skalla and Ala Mhigo pulls.

[van_arn]

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

The only thing this tells me is you've not really tried it yourself. It's doable in most content, but at the expert tier it's hit or miss depending on the boss. That said, tanks are an unlimited resources at expert tier, and by the time you make it to the next boss you'll have a replacement ready. Not to mention tanks have absolutely no excuse at expert tier not to multipull, so the kicks are exceptionally easy.

If you'd like to get started for yourself, though, try Snowcloak. The bosses are simple until Fenrir, at which point you'll have fun managing your healing and threat over an extended period. You can also try more bizarre party compositions in other dungeons, such as three healers and a ninja "tank," or just try kicking your tank and seeing how your party does on the boss. It's difficult to express just how fun it can be to use your skills in ways you don't typically use them, like in the worst case using raise as a tankbuster mitigation tool.

As I've said before, it's not about what's fastest or most efficient-- efficiency is often the death of fun, anyway. It's about getting rid of an undesirable from your group, and you all agreeing to stick together to the end. Without that undesirable, just because you can. It just so happens that for a lot of the time, it's hard to tell a tank is missing outside of the damage spikes.

[Fluffernuff]

Putting my general shame for this little set of commentors on this thread aside though, i should clarify my stance in the first place-

I do think that large pulls should be the norm- its a benefit to everyone in the group. Should you and your healer be comfortable, there should be 0 reason behind making things run slower. If you're still new, uncomfortable, or don't know what pulls even exist yet (such as a new dungeon being released), thats fine to not go balls to the wall- however, they should be the goal. To work towards that.

That being said, there are a number of factors that need to be worked in for that to be a reality- the first of which being my immediate party. If my healer cant keep me up and my DPS cant even swat a fly down... I'm sorry, your poor performance has revoked your right to big meaty pulls. flat out. If I'm using 2 ramparts in the same pull, you're getting 3 mobs next time. Help me help you.

Second is another I brought up- life circumstance. This also includes comfort and stuff. You're simply not going to get increased performance from someone if you heckle them or make it harder. If I'm pulling what i think I or you can handle and you run off and pull another pack i didnt know i could handle because your buddy did it once? sure, I'll grab them, but if we wipe, I'm -NOT- going to let you deflect it on me because i was too slow for you. and like I said in my first post- This guy came in, was vocal of, and told us they were fresh out of the hospital for a concussion. It takes a special kind of disgusting to treat them like some posters here advocate for.


So... again, I just think this all boils down to 2 things;

1. Use your words. Ask them. Don't demand; Ask. You have a mouth and a brain. Use them.
2. Don't be a jackoff. If you havent asked anything, then you dont have the right to take inaction as a response. If you want to make them miserable, They should have the moral standig to make you miserable.

And yes I'm commenting on this mentality of pulling *for* someone done silently in protest. Because i'll be frankly honest- you expect me to believe the AVERAGE tank is pulling slow and when they do, they fill the screen with profanity and defensive remarks? It HAPPENS, but you expect me to believe its the norm? the majority? get out of here with that. If you have to lie to stand by your case, then what do you even have.

Please just be decent human beings, guys. It's human nature to be polite and cordial- especially if approached amicably. There's exceptions, but dont let them write the rules.


EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

I personally find DRK the best for the really large pulls. Enter with Blood Weapon, Delirium, TBN, and full Blood at the ready and you're nigh unkillable for 20 seconds off self-heals alone. Add to that BP, LD, and DRK's mitigation suite and I've damn near soloed large Skalla and Ala Mhigo pulls.

I dont think DRK are deficient in this regard, but im commenting on a purely "no healer" situation. TBN and AD go a long way, but DRK's survivability against this and especially "soloing" bosses is depressingly lacking compared to the competition

[Awha]

See in democratic system, a bad agent usually is punished by the group for not working together as intended.

There are zero repercussions as a tank, kick me? Fine I re que instantly with little to no loss, i still get my bonus and i am more likely to play with adults than children.

Thing is you are right being removed from a group is not a negative so no need to get annoyed or upset about being removed. It is still adult like behavior so speak to remove someone that simply does not gel with the group. It is not childish to not want play with someone that has a different play style.