The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[MirielleLavandre]

Thanks for all the replies! I made a thread years ago about how there probably isn't really a lack of tanks, but that many tanks just never go into the DF at all and only tank for friends. Thus, the ones who DO use the DF end up waiting longer for tanks b/c many tanks (myself included) usually only tank for friends or FC. My original post was in reply to chats in FC where some members were getting yelled at for pulling for the tank who was supposedly going too slow. Then I saw a post today on reddit (since deleted) about someone getting kicked from a dungeon after pulling 2 extra mobs and also after bragging they couldn't be kicked b/c they were in the party with the other dps as a friend.

Anyways, in regards to one thread about rarely seeing wall to wall pulls, myself and most other tanks I know pull as much as we can until we are stopped either by gates or something in the dungeon that prevents passage. This is, of course, as long as the party is capable and able to do these pulls gear wise. Again, however, as someone mentioned, I'm usually with friends and a healer I trust, so maybe this isn't the norm. I also wasn't worried that Gunbreakers wouldn't pull huge packs, I was more concerned for them that other players would 'pull for them' if they were going slow due to being new to tanking, assuming they weren't already main or career tanks. It is really interesting getting the community's views on this.

Also on topic, I've never had anyone pull for me, except by accident if they accidentally kept running and/or tabbed another enemy, and I always pick it up anyways. I admit, though, that I'd be pretty pissed if someone thought I was going too slow and pulled for me after I'd already taken party composition and gear and healer comfort into consideration :P

[Melichoir]

Good then. Not everyone can handle tanking.

Thank you for confirmation that kicking eventuality causes people who don't want to put in the effort to give up and reroll. Your talk of confidence is nonsense when normal mode tanking is one button.

This is absolutely working as intended, and tanks that refuse to work with their party should be encouraged to give up.

This also applies to healers that spam cure 1 or ice mages. Make these players unwelcome in groups until they either learn, reroll, or are exiled from party play.

You sound like a swell guy at times....

You can die in normal dungeons by overpulling or not knowing what monsters do what. As an example: Final Sting is a thing. You pull overzealously and get hit with it, youll die from it typically. More experienced tanks will account for this in some fashion. Or chain pull into two large packs that each have pretty heavy hitting tank busting monsters.

This idea of "Git Gud - Tanking is easy" is an oversimplification. Wall to wall pulling and keeping aggro is the bare minimum is a stupid position. Cause some of these dungeons, you can pull right up to the boss, but it certainly wouldnt be recommended even with experienced parties.

There are bad tanks, slow tanks, who want to live in their easy mode comfort zone. Sure. But theyre not the majority, nor is it wrong for newer tanks to take it a bit easier to they can get better. No one starts out the best.

[van_arn]

You sound like a swell guy at times....

You can die in normal dungeons by overpulling or not knowing what monsters do what. As an example: Final Sting is a thing. You pull overzealously and get hit with it, youll die from it typically. More experienced tanks will account for this in some fashion. Or chain pull into two large packs that each have pretty heavy hitting tank busting monsters.

This idea of "Git Gud - Tanking is easy" is an oversimplification. Wall to wall pulling and keeping aggro is the bare minimum is a stupid position. Cause some of these dungeons, you can pull right up to the boss, but it certainly wouldnt be recommended even with experienced parties.

There are bad tanks, slow tanks, who want to live in their easy mode comfort zone. Sure. But theyre not the majority, nor is it wrong for newer tanks to take it a bit easier to they can get better. No one starts out the best.

That's why you communicate with your party. You don't single pull because of one fat bird in Mettle or an occasional bee.

If your party doesn't know the pulls, then they're just as clueless as you are and it's a mess anyway. You probably won't get kicked from that group on that alone.

That said, the mechanics for multipulls are all taught at Brayflox. You aren't new beyond that dungeon.

[Xtrasweettea]

The rule is as long as no one dies it's fine.

If a tank kills people by refusing to pick up adds, kick them and healtank. Because they refuse to do their job.

I partially agree with this. If another member gets agro from me not grabbing a wandering spawn, me losing agro, whatever, and I cannot constantly keep everything on me as a tank, then yeah, boot me.

Yet, if a non-tank pulls on purpose (accidents do happen by running too far out in front of me, which is no problem, I will grab the mob), then no, I don’t agree. Kick the non-tank puller.

Remember, when you go into group content, you are signing an agreement between all member to outsource your weaknesses and insourcing other people’s weaknesses.

So:
Healers and DPS outsourcing pulling to Tanks, since it should cost less MP/sec to keep the tank alive than the healer pulling.

Now, if the tank can’t do their job, or it starts costing the same or more MP/sec to keep the tank alive over the healer or DPS, then boot the Tank. The Tank is violating contract because they cannot keep the damage they receive low either due to poor gearing, poor CD usage, or both.

If non-tanks want to pull, they need to state up front that they are going to pull. Then I can choose to agree and go along with them pulling and me tanking them once the pulling is done, or I can just eat the 30 minute penalty and just leave.

Tank is the least useful role in normal modes, so if they can't push one button to do their one job get rid of them.

Once people find out how to do the mechanics and people become over-geared, yes, tanks become the least useful role. Too bad they are required for DR.

Though… thinking about this… I did my job already by joining DR and allowing 2 DPS and 1 healer to group. I can leave since they don’t need me to finish the dungeon. The Tank requirement is only to create a party in DR, not to finish it. The new party lead can search for a new tank if they want.

The corollary to this rule is it doesn't matter what you personally want or are comfortable with, you should get kicked off if your party disagrees with you.

If the party wants to kick me, they can. They can use their limited kicks per day to boot me for not agreeing with them. Then they can weigh out the option of keep going or not. There is no loss for me as a tank player if I get kicked.

There is no reputation damage socially from me being kicked. I will never see those people again, and I can bet that whoever I see in another dungeon, won’t know those people. Since Tank is a required demand by SE for DR, I will always get a spot in a party at the start.

Of course, if I am not comfortable with a certain way they want to do things, or I am just not in the mood (to be honest, I will try anything once in dungeons), then I will just leave. I can do other things.

[Jennah]

As the tank - I generally start by pulling 2 packs. (For most currently relevant dungeons, that *is* wall-to-wall; but I won't take a 3rd until I've seen how the group does.)
Maybe 95% of the time, everything goes just fine. If there's actually a wipe; or I spend most of the fight sub 20% hp without seeing any healer dps; or neither dps is AoEing, I might slow down. And grit my teeth.
As a dps, I usually just grit my teeth and let the tank do whatever. If they're pulling small, I'll often by reflex be halfway to the next pack before I realize they've stopped; but I'm usually self-aware enough not to facepull.
Sometimes just seeing me out there clues them in; if not, the most I'll do is ask if they can pull more. If I was mad enough to do it for them, I'd also be mad enough to rage quit and sit on my hands for 30 minutes.

[van_arn]

I partially agree with this. If another member gets agro from me not grabbing a wandering spawn, me losing agro, whatever, and I cannot constantly keep everything on me as a tank, then yeah, boot me.

Yet, if a non-tank pulls on purpose (accidents do happen by running too far out in front of me, which is no problem, I will grab the mob), then no, I don’t agree. Kick the non-tank puller.

Remember, when you go into group content, you are signing an agreement between all member to outsource your weaknesses and insourcing other people’s weaknesses.

So:
Healers and DPS outsourcing pulling to Tanks, since it should cost less MP/sec to keep the tank alive than the healer pulling.

Now, if the tank can’t do their job, or it starts costing the same or more MP/sec to keep the tank alive over the healer or DPS, then boot the Tank. The Tank is violating contract because they cannot keep the damage they receive low either due to poor gearing, poor CD usage, or both.

If non-tanks want to pull, they need to state up front that they are going to pull. Then I can choose to agree and go along with them pulling and me tanking them once the pulling is done, or I can just eat the 30 minute penalty and just leave.



Once people find out how to do the mechanics and people become over-geared, yes, tanks become the least useful role. Too bad they are required for DR.

Though… thinking about this… I did my job already by joining DR and allowing 2 DPS and 1 healer to group. I can leave since they don’t need me to finish the dungeon. The Tank requirement is only to create a party in DR, not to finish it. The new party lead can search for a new tank if they want.



If the party wants to kick me, they can. They can use their limited kicks per day to boot me for not agreeing with them. Then they can weigh out the option of keep going or not. There is no loss for me as a tank player if I get kicked.

There is no reputation damage socially from me being kicked. I will never see those people again, and I can bet that whoever I see in another dungeon, won’t know those people. Since Tank is a required demand by SE for DR, I will always get a spot in a party at the start.

Of course, if I am not comfortable with a certain way they want to do things, or I am just not in the mood (to be honest, I will try anything once in dungeons), then I will just leave. I can do other things.

And I can tell you're someone that should tank because you realize kicking isn't an identity- shattering incident, and anything you can do your party can do. No kick happens on its own, and in most cases it's a blessing to be kicked since you'd be removed from a situation that wouldn't be enjoyable for you, anyway.

More kicks.

[Sandoria]

In the wise words of "You spank it , you tank it"

The tank pulls. That is the way it has always been with me .
You get one free pull , after that I will not heal you.

This^ This^ THIS^

[Darkpaw]

That's why you communicate with your party. You don't single pull because of one fat bird in Mettle or an occasional bee.

If your party doesn't know the pulls, then they're just as clueless as you are and it's a mess anyway. You probably won't get kicked from that group on that alone.

That said, the mechanics for multipulls are all taught at Brayflox. You aren't new beyond that dungeon.

Thats not necessarily true though. Your first time experiencing a dungeon is always a new experience and in dungeons where first timers hit a gear gap (ala bardam’s mettle in sb for an example) the mobs begin hitting much harder and some tanks would rather take it a little slower to ensure a clear rather than go balls to the wall and pulling everything.

Tanking in theory is easy yes, but the act of doing it can be more stressful than people assume. Many tanks i talk to feel it is there responsibility to make sure the group clears, and some prefer to err on the side of caution. Nothing wrong with that mentality. Not everyone is going to play the same and trying to force your playstyle as if it is solves nothing. Yes, communication is key, so is patience and understanding.

[van_arn]

In the wise words of "You spank it , you tank it"

The tank pulls. That is the way it has always been with me .
You get one free pull , after that I will not heal you.

If the tank is going along with the dps pulling, this is when the tank and dps kicks the healer.

If the tank doesn't like this, then the healer and the tank kicks the pulling dps.

Stop with this passive aggressive bs, it's petty. You can lose your job to someone else, but you don't get to stop doing your job because you feel like quitting.

You deserve a kick or you should leave if you refuse to do your one job.

[TMW001]

DPS or even healer should never pull anything always find out how much the tank can handle and how well they can handle it and how confident a healer is with upkeep with big pulls not everyone is gods answer to MMO roles and most folks may be running a place for the first time or just new to the game in general.