The fun in healer DPS

[LariaKirin]

The fact that you think that a rotation with 8, 7 of them used in single target situations, skills (Bio2, miasma, miasma 2, ruin2, broil2, energy drain, bane and shadowflare) is the same as a reductionist rotation of 4 offensive skills, 3 single target (ruin2, broil3, biolysis and art of war) says a lot about your quality as Sch.

Maybe some skills like shadowflare are just a press and forget until they come off cooldown but those are OPTIONS that we are losing, those are things to manage that we are losing and even if some are not as vital to the jobs as energy drain could be (which funny enough is going to dissapear too) losing them in a job which spends 80-90% of the time doing that thing is unacceptable.

You said: ""Fun is not spamming one button in a dungeon". But spamming one button with an occasional other button is? Because that's what we have at the moment.". Fun is having options, having things to manage, having tools to expres yourself and your skill with the job you like, with the 5.0 changes we're losing fun.

I did not say it's the same. I said that whatever you did with those 7 skills is no more engaging than what you'll be doing with the new kit. The only exception being Energy Drain, which I mentioned specifically.

The only "option" we had was Energy Drain. You do not have an "option between Broil2 and Miasma" when Miasma is up. You do not have an "option between Broil2 and Miasma" when Miasma is down. You simply replace a Broil2 button press with a Miasma button press in your 2111111111 rotation.

The rotation was not engaging before and it will be very trivially less engaging in 5.0. Playing a healer as a whole will not change, because what makes healer dps engaging is the process of balancing your "dps" casts and "heal" casts. Another thing that makes healer dps engaging is the content you do.

So, if you think Sch goes from engaging to boring due to these changes, all I have to say is find more engaging content.

[EaMett]

You're also missing my point, which is that the fun in dpsing as a healer is balancing your healing/dps, not having multiple buttons to press. I would say the same thing about dps and tanks, if the dps and tanks were healers...

You're absolutely correct in saying that part of the fun is balancing healing and dps. Essentially what we're talking about here is optimizing healing to free up more downtime. Currently that downtime is spent DPSing. As such it wouldn't hurt to add a few more options in our DPS kit. Especially during dungeons. Both multitarget and single target would gain a lot of flow back from simply getting ED and shadowflare back in some form or another. Also fixing the potencies of Ruin II/Broil so that Ruin II becomes a good option for single weave.

[LariaKirin]

You're absolutely correct in saying that part of the fun is balancing healing and dps. Essentially what we're talking about here is optimizing healing to free up more downtime. Currently that downtime is spent DPSing. As such it wouldn't hurt to add a few more options in our DPS kit. Especially during dungeons. Both multitarget and single target would gain a lot of flow back from simply getting ED and shadowflare back in some form or another. Also fixing the potencies of Ruin II/Broil so that Ruin II becomes a good option for single weave.

Yes, ED (or something that functions similarly - in the interest of separating SMN/SCH) is something I would want back.

Shadowflare as-is, I don't care. Now, if Shadowflare lasted, say, 60 seconds on lower potency, forcing a choice between keeping its DPS up or using the very overpowered new Soil, that's a different story.

Miasma, Miasma II, don't care. Bane - garbage.

[Connor]

Personal opinion here but isn’t it a bit presumptuous of us to assume that our own perceptions of what’s ‘fun’ are representative of the entire healer community. Unless any of us have surveyed every player that regularly uses a healer on their thoughts on the subject, none of us can describe an invariably ‘fun’ design. Honestly I think the real problem here is that everyone is trying to force their own definition of a ‘fun’ on each other, which naturally is just going to end in arguments.

Not that I’m saying nobody should give their personal opinions, but I don’t feel like trying to pass off our views as being those of the wider community is going to contribute anything to the discussion.


Ultimately, as with any video game, all we can really do is accept the definition of ‘fun’ supplied by the game developers themselves, regardless of where that definition falls.

[EaMett]

Personal opinion here but isn’t it a bit presumptuous of us to assume that our own perceptions of what’s ‘fun’ are representative of the entire healer community. Unless any of us have surveyed every player that regularly uses a healer on their thoughts on the subject, none of us can describe an invariably ‘fun’ design. Honestly I think the real problem here is that everyone is trying to force their own definition of a ‘fun’ on each other, which naturally is just going to end in arguments.

Not that I’m saying nobody should give their personal opinions, but I don’t feel like trying to pass off our views as being those of the wider community is going to contribute anything to the discussion.


Ultimately, as with any video game, all we can really do is accept the definition of ‘fun’ supplied by the game developers themselves, regardless of where that definition falls.

The regular feedback on the forums over the past 2-4 years should give a pretty decent overview of what the healer community considers as fun. There are also overarching game design principles that define "fun" to some measure. Challenge and expression being two of those principles. Both of which are nerfed by simplifying toolkits and homogenizing classes. It still remains to see whether the content will be more challenging but SE has a track record of keeping things easy for the lower tiered players. Which isn't a bad thing, it just isn't compatible with the changes made to some healers specifically.

Also, if the community spent the past 2 years complaining about how WHM needed a couple more DPS skills (instant gcd and ogcd) to make it feel less clunky during healing downtime. I think it's safe to say that removing those exact skills from SCH was going to create something not fun (for example, insert your favorite healer here).

[KDSilver]

I felt more engaged with the multiples dots to maintain in Heavensward and the stance dancing "stress" than the one and only on SHB.

Personnal feeling, personnal opinion, but that's my point of view.
The "real fun" about dpsing is already dead for a long time so, I got used to it.

[Fyce]

The regular feedback on the forums over the past 2-4 years should give a pretty decent overview of what the healer community considers as fun. There are also overarching game design principles that define "fun" to some measure. Challenge and expression being two of those principles. Both of which are nerfed by simplifying toolkits and homogenizing classes. It still remains to see whether the content will be more challenging but SE has a track record of keeping things easy for the lower tiered players. Which isn't a bad thing, it just isn't compatible with the changes made to some healers specifically.

Also, if the community spent the past 2 years complaining about how WHM needed a couple more DPS skills (instant gcd and ogcd) to make it feel less clunky during healing downtime. I think it's safe to say that removing those exact skills from SCH was going to create something not fun (for example, insert your favorite healer here).

If that was true, a lot more people would currently play SCH. But WHM is still way, way ahead. And if we include AST's number to WHM since both are so close to each other in terms of their DPS kit, the "challenge, engagement and complexity" of SCH is definitly not what most people are actually looking for. If anything, looking at census numbers, SCH becoming more like WHM/AST will make it more popular.
It does not invalidate the complaints from people who enjoyed that aspect of SCH, but let's not make false generalities. When speaking about subjective topics, people should keep it on a personal level.

Also, the OF is well known for having a loud vocal minority and being an echo chamber. Saying that it's representative of the overall community is definitly not correct all the time. It just represents the people who do speak up. And even then, different social platforms often don't agree with each other on certain topics.

If anything, people should always remember Gordias.

[EaMett]

If that was true, a lot more people would currently play SCH. But WHM is still way, way ahead. And if we include AST's number to WHM since both are so close to each other in terms of their DPS kit, the "challenge, engagement and complexity" of SCH is definitly not what most people are actually looking for. If anything, looking at census numbers, SCH becoming more like WHM/AST will make it more popular.
It does not invalidate the complaints from people who enjoyed that aspect of SCH, but let's not make false generalities. When speaking about subjective topics, people should keep it on a personal level.

Also, the OF is well known for having a loud vocal minority and being an echo chamber. Saying that it's representative of the overall community is definitly not correct all the time. It just represents the people who do speak up. And even then, different social platforms often don't agree with each other on certain topics.

If anything, people should always remember Gordias.

Quite a few issues with your post.

First off there are some other posts in this forum that go over the demographics that are most likely to have an online presence in these forums and therefore more likely to be represented. Aka people who would spend time online trying to better their skill in game (optimize). That would be the raiding scene for instance but not limited to since a lot of people who don’t raid still care about playing well.

Secondly SCH IS the most represented class in that demographic. By far. Besides I’m not even sure why you bring sch up here? This forum has been all about whm these past couple of years. Basically the healer that has it the roughest usually gets post monopoly and right now that is sch.

Thirdly, even if you consider census for the entire game whm represents about 36% of the active healer player base (to the best of our knowledge). Thats a tad over 1/3rd and not even close to being “way ahead” (whatever that means).

Lastly, you’re confusing what people are complaining about with the dps kit. We’re complaining about our options during downtime and how dumbed down and clunky they are.
In that regards comparing AST to WHM isn’t even close since AST has an entire card system to weave into their dps. Besides, even they have been here to complain about the changes and also don’t consider their “dps rotation” all that fun to start with so it’s easy to see what the state of whm and sch are in 5.0. (Although whm have been in this state and complaining a while now, they’re sad things haven’t changed and sch are dealing with the loss)

There’s also an argument to make about people who simply don’t care enough to give feedback and wether or not their lack of vocal opinion on the topic should even matter that much considering some of them may not even have an opinion. And does it even matter to any of them that the online presence is trying to readjust the kits a bit?

So all in all. No let’s not chuck it down to only being the opinion of those posting. Let’s treat the forums for what they are: a feedback channel that expresses the sentiment of its overarching demographic.

[WaxSw]

I did not say it's the same. I said that whatever you did with those 7 skills is no more engaging than what you'll be doing with the new kit. The only exception being Energy Drain, which I mentioned specifically.

The only "option" we had was Energy Drain. You do not have an "option between Broil2 and Miasma" when Miasma is up. You do not have an "option between Broil2 and Miasma" when Miasma is down. You simply replace a Broil2 button press with a Miasma button press in your 2111111111 rotation.

The rotation was not engaging before and it will be very trivially less engaging in 5.0. Playing a healer as a whole will not change, because what makes healer dps engaging is the process of balancing your "dps" casts and "heal" casts. Another thing that makes healer dps engaging is the content you do.

So, if you think Sch goes from engaging to boring due to these changes, all I have to say is find more engaging content.

Forgot about what you said about energy drain while writting, my bad sorry.

The rotation may not be as engaging as dps one but for a healer was good, not perfect and it had a lot of room to improve but was better than its counterparts in the job, 4 dots (1 of them cd) weaving options and a filler spell, may be basic but it worked good enough for me and other people to, with the help of the healing tools, keep the job interesting now you see what they're doing in the 5.0 and...that is not a scholar, thats a white mage with a fairy and we as customers have all the right to complain.

[Fyce]

Quite a few issues with your post.

First off there are some other posts in this forum that go over the demographics that are most likely to have an online presence in these forums and therefore more likely to be represented. Aka people who would spend time online trying to better their skill in game (optimize). That would be the raiding scene for instance but not limited to since a lot of people who don’t raid still care about playing well.

Secondly SCH IS the most represented class in that demographic. By far.

Right. And they do not represent all the people playing healers in the slightest. A huge portion of the FFXIV playerbase doesn't even come to the forums or speak on any social media. That demographic is represented almost nowhere but ingame. Which is why you absolutly cannot say that the forums are a good representation of the community as a whole. It never has, it never will be.

Besides I’m not even sure why you bring sch up here? This forum has been all about whm these past couple of years. Basically the healer that has it the roughest usually gets post monopoly and right now that is sch.

Why do I talk about Scholar in a thread with people mostly discussing about how SCH is getting impacted by the changes? I don't understand your question...

Thirdly, even if you consider census for the entire game whm represents about 36% of the active healer player base (to the best of our knowledge). Thats a tad over 1/3rd and not even close to being “way ahead” (whatever that means).

Lastly, you’re confusing what people are complaining about with the dps kit. We’re complaining about our options during downtime and how dumbed down and clunky they are.
In that regards comparing AST to WHM isn’t even close since AST has an entire card system to weave into their dps. Besides, even they have been here to complain about the changes and also don’t consider their “dps rotation” all that fun to start with so it’s easy to see what the state of whm and sch are in 5.0. (Although whm have been in this state and complaining a while now, they’re sad things haven’t changed and sch are dealing with the loss)

I'll answer about AST first: The card system is a few button presses every 30s without much thoughts behind it. Not only you are not spamming them like you would for DPS skills, but cards are definitly not something to use exclusively during downtime. What AST specifically do during downtime is spam Malefic and apply one DoT. Cards are always being used without regards to being in downtime or not. They're a null factor.
So, sorry but no, AST is definitly not in a much better place than WHM when it comes to what you spam during downtime. Especially with currently one less DoT to manage. If anything, it's just slightly above. But nowhere near SCH, which is why it's definitly relevant to group WHM and AST together as "jobs that have very few skills to use during downtime". (And I'm not even talking about AoE DPS, where the gap is even larger between WHM/AST and SCH.)

On the subject of numbers now: Where are you getting these numbers from and how are you interpreting them? I suspect that you are looking at the number of "active" players who have CNJ/ACN/AST at max level. If that's the case, I direct you towards weapon collection, which is a much better metric to know what job people are actually playing, and by default includes max level while also removing the issue of ACN being tied to SMN and SCH.

Here's the numbers showing how much i380+ weapons are being used by each job (worldwide):
WHM: 23904 (49,1%)
SCH: 13667 (28,1%)
AST: 11115 (22,8%)

Almost half of the "endgame" (numbers are also in favor of WHM for weapons below i380) healer population plays the job with the least amount of "options" when it comes to do stuff during downtime (according to your definition. I would also include AST in there, but I don't even need to to make my point).
This, again, shows how much different the actual playerbase and the vocal minority on forums are. If the lack of "options" and "engagement" during downtime was such a big issue for the community as a whole, WHM wouldn't be that much played. Especially if we also consider how the "meta" impact jobs being played.
In short: if people play WHM that much, it means that your idea of "what's fun" within the healer population isn't as widly shared as you may think simply by looking at forums feedback.

There’s also an argument to make about people who simply don’t care enough to give feedback and wether or not their lack of vocal opinion on the topic should even matter that much considering some of them may not even have an opinion. And does it even matter to any of them that the online presence is trying to readjust the kits a bit?

It doesn't mean that the vocal minority should decide for these people (or think that they represent them). Again, remember Gordias. Loud people deciding for everyone, almost killing the raid scene entirely. Ignoring silent people has never been a good idea. And acting as if they share your thoughts is even worse.
Regardless, you just disproved your own point: you can't say that the forums "should give a pretty decent overview of what the healer community considers as fun" if you acknowledge the fact that silent people (the majority) have a different opinion - or no opinion at all. It's not because people don't speak up that they share your views on what's fun.

So all in all. No let’s not chuck it down to only being the opinion of those posting. Let’s treat the forums for what they are: a feedback channel that expresses the sentiment of its overarching demographic.

The opinions of those who provide feedback are just that. They do not represent anything else than their own voices.

To summarize, yes, you do speak for yourself. Your own subjective opinion on "what's fun" is yours and yours only. It's great if some people share that opinion and get behind it, but acting like that vocal minority represents anyone else's thoughts is definitly wrong.

The forums definitly don't speak for everyone, not even for a majority in a lot of cases. It has been shown countless times already, and once more today.
But again, speaking for yourself doesn't weaken your opinion. However, making wrong generalizations definitly does.