Astrologian 5.0 Discussion

[Cheremia]

Snip

I know it wasn't directed to me but!

1: I actually do and Paladins do use a lot of tp, so do warriors, but they usually stop at half since they don't want to use all of their tp. I actually use tactician a lot in dungeons. It does make a difference but barely. And if dps really don't know how to aoe without just blowing out all of their tp+invigorate, lousy tp regen will not help them (this includes goad AND tactician, they can not outlast aoe spam that uses tp AT ALL)

2: Less damage is good, using something that barely does it, other than steroidbole, is not really worth it. And you shouldn't hold a really buffed up bole just for that Tank buster. Fights usually have more than one and you just holding bole for that cases still makes you play with less cards in the end. As i said, you have essential dignity, which works FINE with tanks getting a little more damage and no tank will just die on a buster if they do what THEY have to do. Also: Sch just use excog, they don't need to heal, WHm just use tetra. Just essential+Abenefic them, you have an instant heal with Regen/shield on it

3: Yeah i did, on all 3 healers, in 24 mans where i ressed more than my team while also keeping them alive. And you know what. Try getting a super ewer in that case other than you holding on to it just in case it happened to justify never using a lot of cards because you always needed to have that super ewer ready. WHat do i do? Lightspeed+Lucid dreaming if both are off cooldown and i extend those 2. Works fine usually. I know other asts rarely extend their lightspeed/lucid for some reason but i always do it given the chance(with cards of course). But if dps always think they have to instantly die before you can heal them even if you tell them to wait with actions till they get healed, they can wait before wasting my mp even more. And if fights have an enrage, if everybody dies left and right, it's usually just a lost cause if they just die again after you use lb3.(not in content where you are overgeared as hell and can go make a sandwich in the meantime)

4: I do like Spear/arrow because they at least do something, i like making blms go fast.

It's still so niche uses where it implies that your co healer does absolutely nothing and can't just thin air/Lucid/Aetherflow/Lightspeed for a little recovery in case they died themself. Most healers need only 1 heal to heal a tank after tankbusters, too and mitigating damage is still GOOD. But you can do it on demand and not rng your way around it to justify uses for aoe boles, which have their potency reduced, too. And using superboles is just a waste too.

On a fun note, i always make fun of how i become a resbot in case i need to res a lot.

[Rahspdoy]

Yeah but they give you tools you act on RNG.
Yes we had 6 cards but :
- You never used Spire outside of Royal Road
- You never used Bole
- you scarcely used Ewer for MP, otherwise it was royal road.
- Arrow was not a good thing for some jobs
---- All this submitted to RNG. Having a bole come right for a Tank Buster is more than rare. Same for Ewer when someone is lacking MP.

Now it's just DMG up, and you cycle through Seals for Divination full potency (although like a said, 6% every 3minutes is too low in my opinion, unless you can stack it with individual cards)
I agree, it's less "challenging" than current cards but I don't know if it is really that bad, especially if fights need more healing and you Draw more frequently.

Also I'm grateful we are finally getting rid of this Sleeve Draw Scenario :

What RNG is there tools to work on?... You have 1 single coin to flip with only 2 sides, and 3 'possible' signs that can show up above those 2 and only 2 choices. And nomater WHAT combination you get of anything, the one and only thing you have is a DMG buff. Nothing else. You can get the exact same face of the coin to show up 3 times in and row, with the exact same sign 3 times in a row.. and guess what?.. Your still giving a DMG buff! Or you can get the exact same 'face' of the coin to show up 3 times in a row, but get 3 different signs.. and oh yea! 'better' version of the exact same buff!

I used Bole quite often, I used Ewer on every other 'caster' i raized if i manage to get it as a card before i rezed them. Or even myself if my own mana was running low so i cold stack it with Lucid Dreaming. And cycling a Balance so you could use a 'boosted' Arrow on a ninja was just fun (the only downside being they'd burn through their TP insainly fast.. but hey! 5.0 = no TP! so there goes that 'one and only downside'.)

And as for the "Now its just DMG up". Your right... you have 1 card.. and 1 card only now. Which... isnt a card, it a coin you flip.

As foor the Sleeve draw you mentioned. Yea.. ive gotten it before. Their 'removing' TP as a whole.. Makes sense Spire would nolonger be needed meaning they could CHANGE that card's effect to make it more useful with 5.0's mechanics.

Instead, they simply went "Hey! We heard the Meta-players only care about pure Damage buffs.. so were taking all your cards away, and giving you a coin to use instead! Have fun!"

[Suishouhime]

snip

1. This is a bizarre comment in general; I've never had a PLD stop at half when they could easily stop at 1/10th, since you don't need more than that for your rotations due to its regen speed, and it regens fast enough out of combat for the next wall-to-wall pull that you're not going to be wanting for your initiate. Also, when used appropriately (i.e. at half TP), Goad and Tactician make a tonne of difference to AoE pulls, as does Spire. If your issue is that Spire still isn't effective enough for your personal taste, surely the solution is to buff it, not to remove it entirely.

2. Duration Bole is useful in boss fights generally, not just for tank busters. Potency Bole is ideally deployed, not for tank busters, but for large pulls, since it gives you more leeway to throw out a few Gravity casts after Lightspeed. I've done a few min-IL runs that simply wouldn't've been possible without a potency-buffed Bole. I still get a rush of excitement when Bole shows up on my draw, even if I end up burning it or Crowning it.

3. I've never held onto a Ewer "just in case" personally, but there have been tonnes of times--especially in the recent Ivalice raids--where my cohealer simply hasn't healed at all, and I've relied on Lightspeed, Lucid, and been struggling for mana regardless. I have two friends who main BLM whose staggered Mana Shifts have helped, but I've absolutely been praying for a Ewer card over a Balance because it'd've been more situationally useful at that time. Balance is useless when everyone is too (almost-) dead to make use of it.

4. My favourite class to throw an Arrow on is MNK. Greased Lightning who?

A more general comment - just because the buffs aren't game-changing doesn't mean they're not useful. I've always felt the difference when I use my cards, or when I have a card used on me.

[Rahspdoy]

*snip to tag you essentially*

Here's a quote from someone else in another thread...

Seals are used with this cool new skill called Divination. It increases damage of all party members by 6% for 15 seconds if you have all three types of seals.
And it has a 3 minute cooldown. In three minutes, you can play up to NINE cards if you use Sleeve Draw. And every three minutes, you only need THREE seals. This means the seals are literally useless 66% of the time. Remember Lilies? I remember.

Everyone is putting so much stock in this new 'sign' system being such a great thing because it *gasps* lets you give the whole party your 1 single buff now, rather than having to spam-cast it on everyone.. that their ignoring how many cards you can draw in-between uses of the new Divination skill. And given how many cards you can pull in those 3 minutes, vs the 33% chance of getting a 'different' seal each draw... the 'requirement' for having 3 'different' seals is almost moot. And as such, that requirement may as well not exist as your almost guaranteed to 'always' have 3 different seals.


As for what all of us who LIKED the old system would rather have in place of this single coin-flip and a 3-sided dice (which when all said and done makes no difference 'what' you get as its all the exact same thing.. only with 'slightly' better % of the same buff if done 'well'), I personally like this persons idea.

If we don't get back the ancient system, here my changes :
Royal Road and Spread removed, no changes.

Cards
Balance : 5% damage, grants 1 solar seal
Bole : 10% damage reduction, grants 1 solar seal
Arrow : 5% attack speed, grants 1 lunar seal
Ewer : 30 potency mana regen, grants 1 lunar seal
Spear : 5% critical rate, grants 1 celestial seal
Spire : 10% to all healing actions used, grants 1 celestial seal
Lord of Crown and Lady of Crown keep the same effect granted in Stormblood.

Divination
Activable at least with one seal.
You can cumulate 3 seals max of each type.
1 solar seal : 3% damage
2 solar seals : 6% damage
3 solar seals : 9% damage
----
1 lunar seal : 3% attack speed
2 lunar seals : 6% attack speed
3 lunar seals : 9% attack speed
----
1 celestial seal : 3% critical hit
2 celestial seals : 6% critical hit
3 celestial seals : 9% critical hit
----

When you activate Divination :
- If you have 1 solar + 2 lunar, the team will get 3% damage + 6% attack speed.
- If you have 2 solar + 2 celestial, the team will get 6% damage + 6% critical hit.
- If you have 3 solar + 1 celestial + 1 lunar, the team will get 9% damage + 3% critical hit + 3% attack speed.
- Etc.

So, the best case would be within 10 draws in 180 sec, to have 9 seals = 3 solar seals + 3 lunar seals + 3 celestial seals which would give 9% damage + 9% attack speed + 9% critical hit to all the team.

It would be far more interesting and rewarding playing this and dealing with the rng again than what they are trying to give us for ShB.

[Cheremia]

The sign system itself might be good, it might need a little tweaking.
We don't know, i have been saying that divination may need ashorter cooldown to actually be worth something.
Or randomize the seals on each card so it's harder to mix and match. That alone would make it a little more complicated since you never know what card/seal combination you might get. ANd i think that would be the best solution to people who want random.

The problem, however, is when you are forced to use cards that don't do anything. Arrow would be heavily prefered over Ewer in that case, ewer would be burn fodder to buff your next card.

Spire would just be foddered since you rarely need more healing other than maybe bigger shields, but not needed.
The "more healing" effect is exactly what whitemages don't want to have, yet get on everything and anything.

and Bole would yet again be foddered since balance is balance and balance is unbalanced.

Yes, they might have uses, i will never talk against it. But situational doesn't work if those situations don't happen.
I just have been fighting against just drawing ewers/Boles/spires for the last half of orbonne since i got nothing else and nobody needed any of that.

[Ceasaria]

It's more about risk vs reward and choices.
Imagine you have : 2 solar seals, 3 lunar seals and 0 celestial seal.
You get a Bole. What do you do ?
- Use the Bole for reduction damage on tank (best case) + grants the 3rd solar seal.
- Use Redraw :
-- With the hope to get Balance or Spear, two bonus damage which will grants a seal (3rd solar or 1st celestial).
-- If you have Spire, use it if the situation need it and get one seal, or use Minor Arcana (not a logical choice because you don't get a seal) if you need absolutely Lady of Crown now (with 50% de get it) or want a Lord.
-- If you have Arrow or Ewer, use them if needed (for example Arrow on BLM or Ewer on a healer without mana) and no more lunar seal gained because already 3, or use Minor Arcana for same reason then above.

With Media Tour system, you would have, if we keep the 1/1/1 seals max :
Example : actual seal set : 0/1/0
Same, you get Bole, what are the options ?
- Use Bole because damage buff and you will get the solar seal.
- Use Redraw :
-- You get Balance. You use it for damage buff and get the solar seal.
-- You get Spear or Arrow. It doesn't matter, you have already the seal, use Minor Arcana for damage buff.
-- You get Ewer or Spire. It doesn't matter, use it for damage buff and get you Celestial seal.

You just don't have to think with this system. I don't see any interesting choices and fun with that.

Thanks Ivory for sharing my idea

[Gemina]

Taking that logic to its extreme, why have ten DPS jobs when they all do basically the same thing: kill monsters until they die from it? Just make everybody a BLM. And why does BLM need eleventy dozen spells that all do damage? "Rotation?" There's one mathematically optimal rotation every BLM follows, therefore the job only offers the "illusion of choice," therefore the devs should just roll all BLM damage into a single I WIN button that they press on every GCD.

That's basically what's been done to AST's card system.

That indeed is taking the logic to the extreme. Jobs are not cards though. We can't just have BLMs as DPS role options because not everyone enjoys playing BLM. Cards differ because everyone wants only one of the possible six an AST can draw. I take no pleasure in swinging the reality hammer, I'm only echoing the status quo. If this comes as a revelation, it is indeed due to the illusion of choice. I can't say with any kind of confidence that non-AST players know what all six cards do, but I'd put a lot of money I don't have on they all know what the Balance does.

I understand why many are upset by the changes. Even though what your party ultimately wants from you doesn't necessarily take away the fun of how you got there. I'm not arguing that the job's card mechanic hasn't been simplified, or that it is devoid of issues. However one of those issues is not the loss of five effects because nobody cared about them anyway. I also wouldn't worry about Divination as I am confident that those return numbers will be adjusted in the near future. Probably not by 5.0's launch, but I would expect it to happen around 5.1 or 5.2 after they see how things play out initially.

[Suishouhime]

It's more about risk vs reward and choices.
Imagine you have : 2 solar seals, 3 lunar seals and 0 celestial seal.
You get a Bole. What do you do ?
Redraw for Balance, Spear or Spire ? But you can get Arrow or Ewer, which will result to the loss of one seal (because you have already 3 lunar seals).
And if you don't want to redraw, then use the bole (which give you the 3rd solar seal) or Minor Arcana to get either Lord or Lady (lost a seal).

Thanks Ivory for sharing my idea

It was a great idea. Kept the versatility I love about AST while also streamlining Royal Road into Divination. Really liked it!

[Rahspdoy]

and Bole would yet again be foddered since balance is balance and balance is unbalanced.

And yet.. every single card, 'except' for Balance, was removed.

So if Balance is unbalanced, why make it the 1 and 'only' card we have? just double-sided now instead of single-faced.

*apparently it wouldnt let me make a new post, so adding to this one*

I understand why many are upset by the changes. Even though what your party ultimately wants from you doesn't necessarily take away the fun of how you got there. I'm not arguing that the job's card mechanic hasn't been simplified, or that it is devoid of issues. However one of those issues is not the loss of five effects because nobody cared about them anyway. I also wouldn't worry about Divination as I am confident that those return numbers will be adjusted in the near future. Probably not by 5.0's launch, but I would expect it to happen around 5.1 or 5.2 after they see how things play out initially.

If no one cared about, or wanted any of the other cards at all, then why even have Astrologist in the game?

Just buy 99 of these: Braised_Pipira and your all set!

Instant Astrologist. +8% damage that lasts for 30 minutes, and with the added benefits of not disappearing when you die. Instant cast time, You didnt have to wait for them to get a tripple set of Signs... and frees up a extra place for another DPS in the group!

Because that is exactly what i feel Astrologist are now. A walking Food buff.

[Cheremia]

Because Balance is not a CHANCE to do bigger damage like crit up. It is not making you hit a little faster like arrow.
It is a flat out damage increase with everything you do. Even a little bit does more than a chance to crit more or being a little bit faster.

If you think balance is anything but unbalanced, you have never thought about how strong balance is. It got nerfed already and it still does the best effect out of all of the cards by default because incresing damage is just good. It's unbalanced in comparison to every other card ast can do.

Every card will be balance because if every card makes you stronger, no other card can be complained about, no card is bad in comparison, no card can just have a weaker effect since they're all damage up. AND everybody wants balance if they know what it does.

That is what i mean, balance really is not balanced at all