1.20a tomorrow :D

[Rowyne]

Sorry, you don't.. You may have some idea about low-mid level mage play, but you haven't even equipped a melee weapon at all. You cannot have any idea how melees are doing after the patch without actually playing with them.

Guess you missed the part where I said this:

Stood over my husband's shoulder and watched him, then jumped in and tried it myself. Both of us were sorely disappointed.

So, yes, I have actually tried it out first hand.

[AdvancedWind]

Guess you missed the part where I said this:



So, yes, I have actually tried it out first hand.

Kay, questions:

How many minutes did you spend before proclaiming melee is broken? What's the level of the class you played? Did you try to combo at all? Did you get into a party? Or did you play for 15 minutes, your husband said "See, it's broken!" and you agreed with him and never touched a melee again?

Because my experience with melee classes after the patch has been very enjoyable thus far. I've played solo, light parties, guildleves, tanking and shooting arrows at Ifrit, with levels ranging from 1 to 35, plus archer 50. No offense here, but I'm sure I have far more experience with those classes than you, and I'm still a complete noob when it comes to melee classes. In my humble opnion, they are far from broken.

I'm sure you may have different opnions and that's completely fine and pretty possible, but please tell me you have actually experienced at least some time with a melee class at all. And while we are at it, care to point what feels so bad about them and what you would change? You know, some feedback for our dear developers trying to satisfy yet another consumer?

[Rowyne]

And while we are at it, care to point what feels so bad about them and what you would change? You know, some feedback for our dear developers trying to satisfy yet another consumer?

I have been giving very specific feedback about what I feel is one of the most basic issues. Not just saying, "This sucks, change it." Probably posted it about 10+ times around the forums.

My biggest issue, one that cannot be circumvented, is the fact that you can no longer use any abilities to actively initiate combat. You pull out your weapon, you auto-attack, you watch and you wait for your abilities to light up. It feels non-interactive and slow. The only advice I'm getting in that regard is the Lancer Invigorate ability. But you don't get it until level 14.

I truly believe that someone new to a class and, more importantly, new players in 2.0, will only give a class until roughly level 10 to judge if it feels right (in fact, you've suggested I try out all melees to level 10 before I judge). Plus, even though you get the most out of this game by cross-classing, should it be 100% essential to do so to be able to even play and enjoy combat at all?

I can just imagine this conversation:

New Player: "My Pugilist sucks, I can't even use any abilities at the start of combat."
FFXIV Vet: "Well, you need to go level Lancer to 14, first."
New Player: "...."

Each class needs to have at least one non-TP based ability, right at level 1, that they can use so they're not just watching their character and doing nothing input-wise. No, I'm not asking for the removal of AA or for the stamina bar to come back. Absolutely not. Hated the stamina bar. I don't want 1 1 1 1 1 spam. I think they've made some improvements in 1.20. Combos are fun (I really loved combat in Aion and how it utilized chain skills, which are somewhat similar). I like how casters are more streamlined. But melee doing nothing but watching and waiting at the beginning of combat was a step backward and it greatly overshadows the improvements, to me.

I think Physic said it quite well in the other 1.20 thread. I've highlighted the parts that I feel are most relevant:

i think the point your missing is the current battle is heavily tuned to being max level. It is really bad mid level, or early leveling if you want to call it that. You simply dont have the tools to do your job well early, you probably have 1 combo, and on certain jobs its a not that useful combo, you most likely do not have any of the moves that give you synergy, and you probably dont have all the cross class abilities that might prove useful, but even if you did, you can only equip like2 of them.

One of the reasons you think combat is great and makes sense is because you have everything 50, and you get to see a total package of how its all tuned.
This is one of teh reasons most games give you skills early and power them up as you go, because for the total picture of the job to make sense, you may need some skills earlier, even if they are weakened, like pug needs mp management abilities, blm needs convert etc.

Also having nothing you can do besides wait for teh beginning of teh fight for every melee class is a bad design, people like to initiate combat, possibly at an advantage, they need to abandon the do nothing until you build up power for 4/5 battle jobs (and the only one who can take initiative is archer, and it doesnt get barrage till like, what 34?), its boring, and even though once you get going its ok, its not ok early, and while invig is great, the only person who will have invigorate starting off is lancer.

The abilities and combat is poorly tuned for the ride up, and it needs more starting abilities even if they arent tp earning/based.

the system has some real strengths, and at 50 when you see the full picture of jobs, its generally pretty good, but why does the game actually start at cap? where is the fun before you get to cap? how fun will it be when they have jobs and you cant use bloodbath, invigorate, cure etc? (sure you could level them, but if you want to main monk, you are only really going to want to invest in whatever will actually be useful from level 30 onwards)

In all honesty i feel like the combat designs blindspot is being balanced for having all skills and levels already done.

[Firon]

i think the point your missing is the current battle is heavily tuned to being max level. It is really bad mid level, or early leveling if you want to call it that. You simply dont have the tools to do your job well early, you probably have 1 combo, and on certain jobs its a not that useful combo, you most likely do not have any of the moves that give you synergy, and you probably dont have all the cross class abilities that might prove useful, but even if you did, you can only equip like2 of them.

One of the reasons you think combat is great and makes sense is because you have everything 50, and you get to see a total package of how its all tuned.
This is one of teh reasons most games give you skills early and power them up as you go, because for the total picture of the job to make sense, you may need some skills earlier, even if they are weakened, like pug needs mp management abilities, blm needs convert etc.

Also having nothing you can do besides wait for teh beginning of teh fight for every melee class is a bad design, people like to initiate combat, possibly at an advantage, they need to abandon the do nothing until you build up power for 4/5 battle jobs (and the only one who can take initiative is archer, and it doesnt get barrage till like, what 34?), its boring, and even though once you get going its ok, its not ok early, and while invig is great, the only person who will have invigorate starting off is lancer.

The abilities and combat is poorly tuned for the ride up, and it needs more starting abilities even if they arent tp earning/based.

the system has some real strengths, and at 50 when you see the full picture of jobs, its generally pretty good, but why does the game actually start at cap? where is the fun before you get to cap? how fun will it be when they have jobs and you cant use bloodbath, invigorate, cure etc? (sure you could level them, but if you want to main monk, you are only really going to want to invest in whatever will actually be useful from level 30 onwards)

In all honesty i feel like the combat designs blindspot is being balanced for having all skills and levels already done.

That quote is so untrue, Also quoting the guy that has been piss poor about the battle system since the stamina system was removed is the wrong person to quote cause he has been hating all changes since then. The melee classes are fine low~mid lvl cause i levled my mrd 10~14 in less than 30 mins combos work fine for all low lvl classes. Even when solo you can still hit combo's to the side of the mob w/o stunning them.

[Murugan]

That quote is so untrue, Also quoting the guy that has been piss poor about the battle system since the stamina system was removed is the wrong person to quote cause he has been hating all changes since then. The melee classes are fine low~mid lvl cause i levled my mrd 10~14 in less than 30 mins combos work fine for all low lvl classes. Even when solo you can still hit combo's to the side of the mob w/o stunning them.

I think playing a melee class solo or tanking and using the directional combo attacks is the most fun I've had in game to date. Finally a chance to use SE's own animation lock against their mobs!

[Kugata]

you do realize what sub patches are for right?


no big bang

just leftovers that werent done in time for 1.20 and bug fixes

Isnt there was Beastmen tribes for 1.19a dont think its just fixin minor bugs lol

[AdvancedWind]

But every class learns at least one non-TP based ability before level 6. And level 6 takes like, 20 minutes to reach even for a new player. Btw, only lancer takes that much to learn a non-TP skill, however even their level 1 weaponskill has positional bonus. The Level 2, by the way, has a bonus when used from behind. Guess how you should initiate combat whenever you have spill over TP from the previous fight?

Now, we can all argue that there's no TP-free attack ability, which is true. However, why exactly is that "bad"? Even at low levels, when fighting an even match mob, you need 3 attacks tops to reach 1.000TP, which then can be used to combo into two weaponskills at lower levels, 3 when higher. Also, many enemies have skills that can be avoided, so if you are just standing still and doing nothing while charging up TP, you are likely doing it wrong. Yes, server lag screws that up currently, but this should be much more important (and easier to do) when 2.0 hits. And Yes, Invigorate exists and this game *does* encourage us to level multiple classes. Heck, they even made 90% of the cross classable skills obtainable before level 30, and some of the most useful ones (Second Wind, Invigorate, Cure, Sentinel) are relatively low level.

Also, when leveling up normally, more often than not you will end battles with extra TP to spare - so, most of the time, you *can* start a battle right away with a weaponskill

I do not stand still waiting on TP with my level 10 marauder. I'm always buffing up, trying to use Brutal Swing from the sides for the extra damage, using Heavy Swing => Skull Sunder combo every 10 seconds or so, trying to avoid a few enemy attacks, etc, etc. I may not be always proactively using skills all the time, but I'm not just standing still either.

FFXIV does take a different approach when it comes to skill usage. You are not supposed to trounce everything with skills all the time, specially not at the beginning of a fight. Sure, you can burn up your MP as a mage, but you will need to recover afterwards. Melees, however, have to build up a resource beforehand - and then are able to use several skills in succession via combos, before having to rebuff, evade enemy attacks and ready up for another chain.

It's a somewhat different philosophy and surely there will be people wishing for a much faster combat, but then it's a matter of personal taste and not exactly a flaw within the game. Not saying the current system has no flaws, but it's far from being broken and completely dull.

[Felis]

Isnt there was Beastmen tribes for 1.19a dont think its just fixin minor bugs lol

This was just a leftovers that weren't done in time for 1.19

[Rowyne]

Now, we can all argue that there's no TP-free attack ability, which is true.

Okay, now we're on the same page. Don't you agree it's much better to be civil than say someone's opinions are worthless and should be ignored?

This is the heart of the melee combat issue for me.

However, why exactly is that "bad"? Even at low levels, when fighting an even match mob, you need 3 attacks tops to reach 1.000TP, which then can be used to combo into two weaponskills at lower levels, 3 when higher.

I think you just answered your own question. Three auto-attacks before you can do anything. In an MMO, that's an eternity.

I understand what you're saying. That you should be moving and buffing and using reactive skills in the meantime. And now cross-classing isn't an option, it's a must. But it doesn't take away from the fact that melee now cannot actively initiate combat with an attack ability unless you have a level 14 Lancer skill or TP stored from a previous fight. And the reason that is bad is that it makes combat feel non-interactive.

FFXIV does take a different approach when it comes to skill usage. You are not supposed to trounce everything with skills all the time, specially not at the beginning of a fight. Sure, you can burn up your MP as a mage, but you will need to recover afterwards. Melees, however, have to build up a resource beforehand - and then are able to use several skills in succession via combos, before having to rebuff, evade enemy attacks and ready up for another chain.

It's a somewhat different philosophy and surely there will be people wishing for a much faster combat, but then it's a matter of personal taste and not exactly a flaw within the game. Not saying the current system has no flaws, but it's far from being broken and completely dull.

It's certainly a different approach, one that's definitely not for me. I thought combat was too slow before. Now it feels even slower. It's worse than FFXI, and I didn't think that was possible. It's like being stuck in a Goku power-up when I just want to jump into the fray. >.<

I'm happy for the people who like this style of combat. I will, however, be genuinely surprised if it appeals to more than the niche market this game caters to that grows smaller and smaller as time goes on.

My husband and I had been on the fence about subscribing come Jan 6th, but 1.20 was the nail in the coffin. I'll continue to watch the patch notes and hope that the dev team make changes that restore some non-TP active attack abilities. If not, no matter how many good things come in 2.0, it's hard to play if you don't enjoy combat.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

"slow here, slow there" it's really a matter of perception. I still play ffxi sometimes, and believe me : right now every class reach haste cap very easely, and the game it's MUCH slower of ffxiv right now. Take off all haste, store tp and multi-hit weapons and you'll see an even slower game than before.
If 3 AA it's slow for you, look back to wow: the days where you waited 5 stack of sunder armor before even engage aren't so far