A complaint from a whiny healer

[Lyth]

The thing is, your opening post has nothing to do with mass pulls. The tank in your OP did all their trash pulls with tank stance on. Your complaint was because they took it off on the boss, and couldn't dps as much as a result despite no wipes. The goalposts keep shifting.

As far as AoE pulls goes, there's clear data out there on how much damage is capable of doing in dungeons. Unsurprisingly, caster dps is at the very top, and healers tend to be on the lower end of the spectrum. Also, unsurprisingly, when you look at these nerds doing dungeon 'speedruns' at a high level, the tank is out of stance and maximising their dps, the healer is predominantly dpsing, and your caster is melting mob packs with impunity. Everyone is having a good time. Do you know what's the single most important determinant of how safe a mass pull is? Total dps. The shorter the pull lasts, the less likely that something is going to go wrong.

There's a wide spectrum of views on when tanks should or shouldn't use tank stance. As far as dungeons are concerned, the most common thing to do is to use tank stance for big pulls, and take it off for bosses (which is what your tank did). That's not to say that it's the "correct" thing to do. It's just what most tanks tend to be comfortable with. But there is nothing wrong with tanks who use their stances more or less than this, and you can certainly do mass pulls out of stance if you're comfortable with your job.

But the central issue in this thread isn't about when a tank 'ought' to use tank stance. It's not even about the decision-making process involved. It's about a player, on another role, trying to enforce how someone else should tank.

And the answer to that is universally the same.

...

There are two responses to this. First, in DF content, the only variable that you can control is yourself. Playing more defensively might make your healer dps more. Alternatively, they might start paying more attention to their TV show instead. If you're comfortable making big pulls while optimising your dps, you'll generally find that your approach will work for any group regardless of the rest of your team's skill and gear. As I said earlier, the only limitation on a big pull is dps output. So if you can supply that dps yourself, you've solved any potential problems that you might run into. If the rest of your group (or even part of it) is actually good, it's simply a bonus.

Also, you'll generally find that good healers are not really fazed by what's happening with their tank. They're probably dpsing as hard as we are. Everyone is ready to react if something goes wrong, but in the interim, it's all out dps to get through the mobs as fast as possible.

In organised groups, there's actually dialogue between your healer and tank, in which everyone knows which cooldowns get used where. But that sort of discussion is always, always founded on mutual respect. I've seen healers who have tried to control how many STR accessories their tank used back in the day, or how much tank stance their tank should use, and that's always a massive red flag. If you see that happen, just get out of there.

The goal is never to dictate what your teammates should do. It's about helping each other so that you all get the best result. I don't mind having a death because my healer tried to Bene LD at the last second. We'll just refine it on the next few pulls. I'd rather the death than have them Bene four seconds early because they're worried about the repercussions. We encourage each other to play more aggressively, so that we can all maximise our potential (It's also fun playing chicken with invincibility cooldowns). But that only ever works if your teammates aren't trying to control how you play, and vice versa.

That should be the take home message from this thread. I can't tell you how much tank stance to use. Anything that lets you safely use less tank stance is better for you and your team. But don't let someone else order you around. Respect first and foremost.