A complaint from a whiny healer

[Ftail]

So you want to convince me that your SCH does over 9000 DPS

Because every DPS in expert roulette knows their rotation and is geared. *sarcasm*

The majority of SCH heals are oGCD anyway, so a WAR sitting in defiance gives you ZERO benefit and only means more HP for you to heal. WAR in Deliverance Decimates mobs under IR (see what I did thur? Hurrdurr). And if you want to say that you cast your GCD heals and still beat a good tank/DPS then, I'm sorry but I won't believe you.

1) SCH does not have unlimited resources for their oGCD's. You need to decide if you're going to choose between having more DPS or Healing.

2) Defiance doesn't just increase your Maximum HP. "Increases maximum HP by 25%, while reducing damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity generation. Increases own HP recovery via healing magic by 20%." -https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/warrior/

3) Do you really need to stoop to being so immature with your condescending comments like, "hurr durr"? Because I don't know what I possibly could have done to offend you.

The argument that healers can deal "more DPS than DPS" in AoE was a meme that died with ARR. WHMs, AST and SCH all have respectable AoE, but no way in hell can they beat a DPS that knows where their AoE button on their hotbar.

I only wrote four sentences. I'm not sure how you can misconstrue my argument this badly.

It's an overall net loss for the groups DPS if you don't use tanking stance on huge wall to wall mob pulls.

Conveniently, in your argument, you assumed a "good tank" and not "good DPS". I'm thinking even biased "good tank" here as it is probably a ShO Paladin that uses Clemency on self.

There's a very obvious reason as to why I said I was assuming to have a "good tank". My DPS would be 0 if I had a paper tank that was pulling well above his weight level, and there is no productive reason to even talk about that situation. Whereas a DPS that isn't on top of his game could easily be surpassed on a wall to wall mob pull.

Anyway, I hope you have a nice day. I don't plan to continue having a conversation with you when you've twisted my argument into something completely different and then proceeded to use a condescending tone with me.

[Phoenicia]

Because every DPS in expert roulette knows their rotation and is geared. *sarcasm*

So, because me as a tank that goes under the assumption that every DPS and healer in expert is bad and you as a healer going into expert roulette thinking every tank and DPS is bad, I should trust you and sit in tank stance?

Two wrongs don't make a right, and playing bad because randoms have a chance to be bad isn't the way to fix it.

1) SCH does not have unlimited resources for their oGCD's. You need to decide if you're going to choose between having more DPS or Healing.

2) Defiance doesn't just increase your Maximum HP. "Increases maximum HP by 25%, while reducing damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity generation. Increases own HP recovery via healing magic by 20%." -https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/warrior/

Everyone have limited resources, not just scholars. It's all about how you use them.

I know exactly how SCH and WAR work. They have been my default healer and tank jobs and I only stopped using WAR as my tank-of-choice since 4.2 changes.

The increased healing received is "Healing magic". (SE needs to fix this already).

Healing magic in your kit as a SCH: Succor, Adloquium and Physic (and I pray you do not use this) and the Fairies' Embrace.

Healing "abilities" that defiance do not buff: Lustrate, Indomn, Whispering Dawn, Excogetation, and Aetherpact.

Any good SCH knows how to manage their oGCD heals to keep a decent tank alive with almost never casting spells. As such, WAR doesn't get buffed by the heals you "should" be using. Spending GCDs on Miasma II and 1 AF stack on Bane is the most efficient AoE DPS SCH has. Dropping Miasma II in favor of casting a heal because you'd rather spend stacks on Energy Drain isn't a DPS gain.

3) Do you really need to stoop to being so immature with your condescending comments like, "hurr durr"? Because I don't know what I possibly could have done to offend you.

It was regarding me using the pun of WAR "decimating" mobs with "Decimate". So I didn't mean to offend, but apparently, sense of humor is a rare commodity on the internet (hard to convey).

I only wrote four sentences. I'm not sure how you can misconstrue my argument this badly.

Mainly, in those four sentences, you didn't give much context. All I saw was a meme that should've died in 2013 coming back to live and a skewed scenario being generalized in order to tell people to play bad.

There's a very obvious reason as to why I said I was assuming to have a "good tank". My DPS would be 0 if I had a paper tank that was pulling well above his weight level, and there is no productive reason to even talk about that situation. Whereas a DPS that isn't on top of his game could easily be surpassed on a wall to wall mob pull.

Using a flawed scenario to skew an argument in your favor is the issue here. Just saying "good tank" isn't an indicative of anything. What do you mean by "good tank"? Argument was about tanks staying in tank stance, period, as opposed to it not being needed under proper play. So what was conveyed: "Tanks should sit in tank stance so healers can do more damage".

What's a good tank?

From this thread alone it's obvious what some people consider good isn't the same as others. And maybe many of the different opinions aren't wrong depending on the scenario.

To some, a good tank is someone who has all orange parses on FFLogs. To another, it's a tank that sits in tank stance and plays this defensive wall where most of that is just over kill.

So what makes a good tank?

So is it just a guy that sits and reduces damage all day? A PLD that sits in ShO, spamming Flash and Clemency will probably require very little healing.... Until he runs out of MP... Then said bad DPS run out of TP.... Then you run out of MP, what's next? A 45 minute Ghymlet Dark run?

What about this no-Grit DRK that pulls wall to wall, uses Shadow Wall and Rampart at smart times, uses DADP and TBN to fill in gaps, abuses DA+AD to sustain themselves and in each pull you end up casting 1 or 2 spells on them at most? You'd end up with a 7~9k DPS tank on that pack, and if you're as good as you claim (and I have no reason not to believe otherwise), you'd be doing 5~7k on that pack, and even if you got the crummiest of the DPS, you'd be fine. With the downtime between mob packs and bosses, tank averages 5k, and you 4k, even if you had utter worthless DPS, you carried the run and it would take somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes, if that.

The first scenario you beat the bad DPS in DPS, the tank did 0 damage and the dungeon took too long. In the second, you still beat the bad DPS, your tank beat you in DPS and the dungeon took less than half as long.

That's my argument. The bulk of is that a "good tank" can reduce damage without needing to use their tank stance. This comes at the benefit of more overall team damage. Not even at the cost of healers' DPS. Unless the healer's DPS drops to 0, whatever the tank gains from not using tank is more than whatever the healer loses from switching 1 Energy Drain for that Excog and that 1 Broil here or there for an Adlo or succor.

For me, consistency is what makes a good player. I don't care if half your FFLogs parses are orange if the other half is grey because you died. A "good tank" in my book WILL know where the "DPS gain" is in the first place and as such will pay their own damage for it.

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TL;DR The attitude should be: Tanks lose damage by playing defensively and a good tank knows when this "loss" in damage is worth it.

Instead of: "Tanks trade healer DPS in order to do slightly more damage by playing offensively" because this assumption is 100% wrong.
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For example (even though irrelevant), in Eureka when some high level mobs hit me like a truck (like the dogs that spawn Skoll), I just take it and turn on Grit, go into defensive element and even switch to defensive logos in favor of my healers sparing the GCDs to do offensive element hits in Wisdom of the Aetherweaver which would do much more damage than whatever little I gain for dropping Grit or going offensive element under offensive logos.

Anyway, I hope you have a nice day. I don't plan with continuing to have a conversation with you when you've twisted my argument into something completely different and then proceeded to use a condescending tone with me.

Likewise. Again, I did not mean to offend with my post. All I wanted was to correct facts because the prejudice against classes is real in FFXIV... And we're tanks, we get defensive very quickly!

[ArianeEwah]

Because every DPS in expert roulette knows their rotation and is geared. *sarcasm*

I get that you don't always have *good* DPS or tanks in your party, not just in expert, but in every duty, even savage, too.
I know from experience that your DPS will be lower the better the tank and DPS in your party. It doesn't need wonders to dish more than 9k DPS when your DPS are lacking.

1) SCH does not have unlimited resources for their oGCD's. You need to decide if you're going to choose between having more DPS or Healing.

If you've got a proper tank instead of a paper tank then you just need 1 Excog and your fairy. 1 or 2 aetherflow stacks should be there for Energy Drain. A WAR in DPS stance using proper CDs will take less dmg than a WAR in Defiance using none. In addition, the first tank will help clearing trash faster compared to the latter one. The faster they die...

2) Defiance doesn't just increase your Maximum HP. "Increases maximum HP by 25%, while reducing damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity generation. Increases own HP recovery via healing magic by 20%." -https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/warrior/

WAR can ignore the increased enmity generation 'cause they will spam Overpower anyway. The increased HP recovery via healing magic doesn't account for oGCDs. It may increase Embrace from your fairy, but their heals aren't the strongest or make up for the DPS loss from WAR. Phoenicia just pointed out the essential, nothing wrong with it.

3) Do you really need to stoop to being so immature with your condescending comments like, "hurr durr"? Because I don't know what I possibly could have done to offend you.

They said 'WAR in Deliverance Decimates mobs under IR (see what I did thur? Hurrdurr).'... because WAR uses Decimate during IR... how can you be feel offended by that?

[HyoMinPark]

If I'm doing a daily expert dungeon on my SCH, I'm actually surprised if I see a DPS class beat me on a large mob trash pull, assuming I have a good tank.

If your DPS know what their AOE buttons do, you’ll never outDPS them on a SCH. Sounds to me more so like you get DPS that don’t know how to AOE as opposed to your damage actually being superior—unfortunately, it’s fairly common to meet DPS that don’t AOE more than to meet DPS that actually AOE.

That being said, you can still have decent AOE output as a healer with a competent tank not in tank stance. I’ve done it.

Because every DPS in expert roulette knows their rotation and is geared. *sarcasm*

I mean, it’s unfortunate that they aren’t...but they really should be. There’s no excuse to not know the basics of your AOE rotation at level cap.