Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

[Xbob42]

In a game where you can spam a completely no-skill dungeon (POTD) to get to at least 60, where are we expecting people to learn? The game needs to press its players more to challenge them and get them up to snuff. There should be basic checkpoints along the leveling curve to make sure you're meeting at least a minimum standard. Like a class quest for DPS where you get your gear and level synced, and have to hit X DPS within Y time to pass. And the only way to do it is to understand your cooldowns and, if applicable, positional moves. Nothing crazy, it wouldn't have to ensure that you could be maximally efficient. That kind of skill is something those who want it should be seeking on their own. But at least enough to where if you dropped them in a dungeon, they'd know what all their abilities are for and generally when to use them. There could be one for healing where you're simply tested on your single targets vs AOE vs instants alongside cooldowns, and a tank one where you hit a wall and watch paint dry because you're not allowed to move or have fun!

These wouldn't have to be hard or confusing affairs. The game could straight up come out and tell you what abilities to use, that's fine. It's not a pride check, it'd be there to make sure you're confident and capable. And if you spaced them out just right, you could go from learning how a super basic combo works at level 10, to properly weaving in your cooldowns, placing your debuffs, etc at 70. Maybe give a little title, minion or even mount for taking the "mastery exam" or whatever. Reward people after teaching them. Reinforce the good stuff. Not everyone's equally motivated to learn on their own, and generally if they've irritated someone enough to say something about it, what they're gonna say is rarely very nice, and if it's not nice, the basic human response is to get defensive and dig in your heels, because we're just dumb animals. This is totally solvable with game design.

[SamSmoot]

Those same people, if you criticize their actions because they don't understand basic game mechanics

Don't criticize, suggest. In one early dungeon, you'd get a red beam on your character that did damage, but if you ran behind a pillar around the edge of the arena, it would stop. One player wasn't doing this, and was dying. I said something like "If you get the red beam, run behind one of the pillars around the edge to get rid of it." I didn't see any complaints, and the player did the right thing next try, and we killed the boss easily.

[Crystal_Raven]

Don't criticize, suggest. In one early dungeon, you'd get a red beam on your character that did damage, but if you ran behind a pillar around the edge of the arena, it would stop. One player wasn't doing this, and was dying. I said something like "If you get the red beam, run behind one of the pillars around the edge to get rid of it." I didn't see any complaints, and the player did the right thing next try, and we killed the boss easily.

No.

If we need to explain basic game mechanics to level 70 players. We have a problem.

New players are fine.

[Sated]

In Party Finder I can understand the frustration but I don't think it's appropriate to expect arbitrary standards in match-made content.

The solution to meeting standards in roulette is to bring your own group. The average player just doesn't care about Goad, and that's fine. It's not an inherently fun ability.

[Kalise]

In Party Finder I can understand the frustration but I don't think it's appropriate to expect arbitrary standards in match-made content.

I think that if you're allowed to sign up for match-made content, that you should really actually be able to complete said match-made content and not just rely on being carried.

Since that's the thing right... Most people don't have high standards for DF content. DF content itself is so braindead and simple that even a monkey can perform adequately enough to contribute to the content.

Sure, some people will expect top 1% World First Ultimate level of gameplay from everyone they meet, but that's unreasonable and those people are idiots for expecting such a thing.

The issue is when people are playing so badly, that their contributing nothing at best and actively detrimental to the party at worst.

Which should not happen.

It's not reasonable that people can join into your match-made content and actively make it more difficult by playing so horribly. When the content itself only demands the bare minimum and these people perform way below that, that's a problem.

[Veis_Alveare]

In Party Finder I can understand the frustration but I don't think it's appropriate to expect arbitrary standards in match-made content.

The solution to meeting standards in roulette is to bring your own group. The average player just doesn't care about Goad, and that's fine. It's not an inherently fun ability.

Watching a WAR destroy a pack of enemies in an early dungeon with Overpower that would have taken twice as long otherwise because you Goaded him is definitely fun.

[Melichoir]

If anything, people should be carrying about standards even in casual content. Because no one likes wiping to boss mechanics, and all this does is breed a level of resentment. I think it grinds my gears most when people arent even playing their C game and still complaining about wipes and mechanics. And there should be a level of accountability even in normal content.

As a point, I tank Shinryu regular the other night, and it was a 20+ minute encounter because DPS were constantly dead from standing in AoEs. This ended up taxing healers, which forced me to stand in Grit to reduce damage taken for the healers, as well as go real ham on using Cooldowns and the like. It boiled down to pretty much 4 of us carrying the entire fight cause people werent doing mechanics. Thats just not acceptable to me, yet there are people who think thats fine. As long as someone clears it, they dont have to put the effort in.

That just makes a community toxic long term because players like me dont expect people to be the best (hell Im mediocre among savage raiders), but I personally at least expect everyone to stay alive and avoid AoEs in a fight thats been out for 2 years now. It's not even a thing where you dont know the mechanics. Literally standing in the orange pancake and not even bothering to move and then waiting for a healer to res you is dumb.

It's not elitism when I encounter that and think "Man, do I really want to play with randoms anymore if its going to be like this every time?"

[Sated]

Watching a WAR destroy a pack of enemies in an early dungeon with Overpower that would have taken twice as long otherwise because you Goaded him is definitely fun.

For sure. My favorite role is support and not the healing kind but the making sure the group is smooth kind. By design the ability itself isn't rewarding in a tunnel-vision way which is why it's underused.

I think that if you're allowed to sign up for match-made content, that you should really actually be able to complete said match-made content and not just rely on being carried.

Hopefully trusts will address the bulk of this. I imagine a lot of the "bad players" are only doing this content because of MSQ and aren't actually interested in learning it so they can grind it (or they'd be in a group instead of roulette)

Or maybe I'm just making the same mistake many people in this thread are and assuming my reasons are "average" simply because it's my experience - I only queue for things when MSQ dictates it. I don't want to be in the dungeon in the first place and have no plans for a "next time" to improve for. I'll still try my best, a decade of hardcore raid habits don't disappear overnight, but I don't think it's fair to expect that of others who may care even less than I do.

[Kalise]

I only queue for things when MSQ dictates it. I don't want to be in the dungeon in the first place and have no plans for a "next time" to improve for.

One would hope after the first 46 duties that were required in order to progress through the MSQ, that it would be a logical assumption that there would be a "Next time" for having to enter a duty in order to progress through the MSQ.

Like, if 46 MSQ required duties isn't enough to inform people that "MSQ is integrated with being an MMO" then how many is? 100? 200? 300? 1000?

It should not come as a shock to people that duties are a part of MSQ. This comes with both solo duties, as well as party content. As such, it should not come as a shock when people ask for a modicum of effort to be put into party content.

Hopefully Trusts will alleviate this and allow people who can't believe it's not butter that the game has implemented yet another MSQ required duty, to not have to actually complete it with other players (Though, I fully expect them to fail going through them with a Trust and go back to trying to get carried in DF if the Trust system happens to also want players to have the slightest bit of knowledge in how to play the game)

[Feidam]

No.

If we need to explain basic game mechanics to level 70 players. We have a problem.

New players are fine.

Except if you refuse to try then problem just perpetuates. So you become part of the problem. I mean let’s face it most of the leveling dungeons are breezed though with some mechanic never appearing. It is not unreasonable that some folks have never seen certain everything to be aware of. Never mind potd leveling or jump potions which further compounds the problem.