Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Kaedan]

All I was pointing out is that large group pulls aren't absolutely, 100% better/faster than single group pulling, like was being claimed. It's never a good idea to make an absolute claim like some have been doing, because there's no such thing in reality.

And where did you get the idea I was implying that "the stars have to be aligned"? Did you even read the conclusion of that post? Here it is again:

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

Bolded the relevant parts. I never claimed if you just screw one tiny thing up it messes up the whole thing.

[ReiMakoto]

I expect with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic, school mathematics should be a problem for no one.
Yet I have met people with dyscalculia that cannot reliably perform simple arithmetic operations no matter how hard they try.

We are talking about the 4 basic math operations here, if we have to baby people enough that the most basic things are considered a skill then the skill requirement is ZERO.
Yeah, we do that plenty IRL.

Why should we behave so differently in video games meant to entertain and relax?

As someone with learning difficulties, this is incredibly patronising to say we should baby people through things and let them play however they like to make them feel good. No one wants to feel like they are a detriment to other people, which is what you are being if you don't learn or play your class with base competence. People with learning difficulties don't need to be babied through, they need to be taught differently. The dungeon isn't necessarily the place to do that teaching, but letting someone know they are inhibiting the enjoyment of others and they should learn some basics (like using aoe or pulling big) isn't elitist, its common courtesy and you should push them to learn. Having a learning disability doesn't make having a grasp of the basics (which is what we're talking about here) unattainable.

[Physic]

I have never had an instance where slapping 3 regens on a tank in a dungeon wasn't enough to have me not even need to heal them.

collective unconscious?

thats 1/90 seconds. Im assuming the third regen is the aoe one, you are talking about 150+140+40 =320 potency heal every 3 seconds. 190 on the pull after that. The only way thats adequate healing for pulls of 2+ groups of monsters consistently is if you and the tank are over geared for the instance.

I really think a lot of the people here have not played a dungeon at minimum ilevel in a really long time. Generally speaking there is a signifigant increase in ease for tanks and healers, with the combination of both being high making things signifigantly different in terms of what they are capable of.

not that its impossible with pretty good coordination, but its pretty risky to pull more than 2 groups at minimum ilevel consistently through the dungeon. Also, when dps is weaker, you are more likely to run low on resources as you go on further.

basically yall are used to being OP.

[Lilseph]

All I was pointing out is that large group pulls aren't absolutely, 100% better/faster than single group pulling, like was being claimed. It's never a good idea to make an absolute claim like some have been doing, because there's no such thing in reality.

And where did you get the idea I was implying that "the stars have to be aligned"? Did you even read the conclusion of that post? Here it is again:

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

Bolded the relevant parts. I never claimed if you just screw one tiny thing up it messes up the whole thing.

Okay then, 95% faster and better than single group pulling.

[Physic]

As someone with learning difficulties, this is incredibly patronising to say we should baby people through things and let them play however they like to make them feel good. No one wants to feel like they are a detriment to other people, which is what you are being if you don't learn or play your class with base competence. People with learning difficulties don't need to be babied through, they need to be taught differently. The dungeon isn't necessarily the place to do that teaching, but letting someone know they are inhibiting the enjoyment of others and they should learn some basics (like using aoe or pulling big) isn't elitist, its common courtesy and you should push them to learn. Having a learning disability doesn't make having a grasp of the basics (which is what we're talking about here) unattainable.

The reality is disability isnt needed to make this argument. You dont have to be disabled not to be above average at this content. You can be undergeared, under experienced, or simply not have a prediliction for high effeciency playstyles.

I am not sure why people think it is their duty to point out and correct non hyper effecient play in basic dungeons. What makes you think they want or desire your coaching on how to play more effeciently? Is it even worth the effort to spend time and energy explaining time attack strategies in a random dungeon group when no one has asked for tips on playing their role?

it makes sense if some one has expressed interest in feedback, but outside of that its not really anyones duty to force hyper effeciency.

[ReiMakoto]

The reality is disability isnt needed to make this argument. You dont have to be disabled not to be above average at this content. You can be undergeared, under experienced, or simply not have a prediliction for high effeciency playstyles.

I am not sure why people think it is their duty to point out and correct non hyper effecient play in basic dungeons. What makes you think they want or desire your coaching on how to play more effeciently? Is it even worth the effort to spend time and energy explaining time attack strategies in a random dungeon group when no one has asked for tips on playing their role?

it makes sense if some one has expressed interest in feedback, but outside of that its not really anyones duty to force hyper effeciency.

We arn't talking about hyper efficiency, we're talking about basic competence in pressing your aoe buttons and pulling big, I don't give a damn about the numbers you're putting out so long as you're actually trying. I know I never would have gotten good at this game without advice from vets in dungeons either. Also we've spoken to you before about this, outside of a leveling dungeon, large pulls are always just objectively better, and so is pressing your aoe when there's 3+ targets, its not about ultra high efficiency, its about basic competence.

[Fyce]

Why should we behave so differently in video games meant to entertain and relax?

Entertaining? Sure. Relaxing? I don't even understand how can someone say that. Freaking Pac Man and Space Invaders were not relaxing. Heck, even the creator of the first ever "video game" was recorded rage quitting his own game out of frustration and anger because he wasn't good at it.

Listening to zen music in a comfy chair is relaxing. Doing yoga is relaxing. Taking a hot bath is relaxing. Playing Dark Souls is not.
If you want to relax playing a video game, you actually have to actively search for a game that can provide you with that. And they are such a tiny niche that finding good ones can be quite hard.

Video games are not meant to be relaxing. Some are. Most aren't.

[Caitlinzulu]

Video games are not meant to be relaxing. Some are. Most aren't.

I hope you mean this sarcastic because thats precisely what games are supposed to be. A way to escape reality and relax your mind. The moment games become like a job what is the point. You might as well focus on your real job and earn real money.

[Physic]

Okay then, 95% faster and better than single group pulling.

95% faster is an overstatement. a signifigant portion of most dungeon time is bosses and travel time. Also some dungeons dont allow super large pulls due to stops.

and different jobs vary in the strength and effeciency of thier aoes. Also consider gear/experience, 1 or two wipes can cost 2-3 minutes depending where the wipes occur. a dps death signifigantly reduces dps during weakness and mana effeciency.

i'd say generally you are looking at 20-50% faster, with a possibility of being slower depending how many times it goes wrong.

Most drama tends to occur at wipes though, so id say wipes gives you a 30% chance of player driven drama. slow pulling gives you 5% chance of drama.

I'm guessing the slower players prefer a safer pace with less chance of people yelling at them or each other. Essentially they are risk averse types

[cicatriz313]

All I was pointing out is that large group pulls aren't absolutely, 100% better/faster than single group pulling, like was being claimed. It's never a good idea to make an absolute claim like some have been doing, because there's no such thing in reality.

And where did you get the idea I was implying that "the stars have to be aligned"? Did you even read the conclusion of that post? Here it is again:

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

Bolded the relevant parts. I never claimed if you just screw one tiny thing up it messes up the whole thing.

Lol you replied to my post that was in response to someone saying aoes don't do more damage in larger pulls which is false as long as you hit more than the single pull which I mean, unless you're absolutely awful is 100% of the time. My point was that based on potency spells will do more damage per gcd in a larger pull.

95% faster is an overstatement. a signifigant portion of most dungeon time is bosses and travel time.

He's saying 95% of runs would be faster doing large pulls vs single pulls which honestly I think is too low. Not that they're 95% faster in time.
Honestly, you guys don't seem to read the posts that posts are quoting before rushing to rebut. Maybe slow down, read the thread, get some insight into the points people are making before making a comment.