Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[van_arn]

Not really. I mean it took a long time to get even those responses. And yes there is a maybe it is different when they have had a TOS change that specially adds language about compelling play styles and further laid out more examples of inappropriate behavior after those other statements were made.

On a side note in my experience since the TOS I have run into way less people behaving badly. Poor behavior really wasn’t the norm before but you’d see more often. I think the new TOS did help alleviate that some.

It's very nice you feel that way, but the fact remains statements have already been made, and they have said nothing since the supposed changes.

It naturally follows that there are no updates, and until there is another statement to counter what we already have been explicitly told about kicks there's no reason to believe it's any different now.

[Sylve]

Delete Trash packs from dungeons.
Replace them with minibosses. Disperse Tome rewards and loot through the minibosses.
Give them mechanics and a health pool that cant be mass pulled efficiently.

I detest mass pulling. I 'grew up' Tanking old school MMOs, where a single add could wipe the party in a dungeon.
The "Efficiency is everything" crowd basically blackmail Tanks, essentially saying 'Tank it our way or we kick'. Awfully similar to the 'Do dps as Healer or we kick' argument. Both boil down to wanting shave a minute or two off the run.

The simplest solution to end the debate is as above. Though I'm also partial to target capping and/or nerfing the hell out of AoE damage.

Mass pulling is a result of overgearing. Its not a 'playstyle'. A playstyle difference would be RP vs non RP. Or someone not using a Job Crystal because they like the Class more. Or using an alternative boss strategy that is mutually exclusive.
Small pulls slightly slow down the run of overgeared players.

Pretty sure if you told a GM "We kicked him because we calculated that this run would take 17 minutes instead of 15 minutes at the current pace", you'd find yourself in hot water.
If mass pulling was the "correct" way to play in a Dungeon, those trash packs you're pulling into each other would all be linked from the start. They're not, So the design intent was one pack at a time.

TL;DR, If you hit Duty Finder with randos, you should be adapting to however the randos are playing. Be it small pulls, a healer not doing DPS or a DPS not being very good. Accept that a DF run will very likely not be a speedrun the moment you add a random to your party.

[HarryTipper]

TL;DR, If you hit Duty Finder with randos, you should be adapting to however the randos are playing.

This can be applied in both ways. In favor of those that want to speedrun and those who don't want to.
And we are right back to square one.

[Sylve]

This can be applied in both ways. In favor of those that want to speedrun and those who don't want to.
And we are right back to square one.

You know how you resolve it?
You ask the rando. If the rando refuses:

Accept that a DF run will very likely not be a speedrun the moment you add a random to your party.

And just finish the damn run with the party you have.

[Awha]

You know how you resolve it?
You ask the rando. If the rando refuses:


And just finish the damn run with the party you have.

Or ask the rando if the rando refuses you initiate a vote to remove the player if it passes you get a replacement if it fails you either make the choice to deal with it or leave.

[Sylve]

Or ask the rando if the rando refuses you initiate a vote to remove the player if it passes you get a replacement if it fails you either make the choice to deal with it or leave.

or

Accept that a DF run will very likely not be a speedrun the moment you add a random to your party.

You could try simply accepting that not every party will be a perfect speed run.
You waste more time booting the 'offending' player and getting a replacement than it would have taken to simply deal with it and clear the dungeon with the party you have.

[Veis_Alveare]

So just to make a quick comparison, a Tank has to:
-Initiate every pull.
-Memorise which mobs do which attacks and how dangerous each one of those attacks are.
-Memorise mob layouts including the trigger mechanic and spawn location of adds.
-Dodge every bad marker.
-Watch Enmity bars to ensure no one peels.
-Ensure 100% uptime or as close to as humanly possible of Defensive cooldowns.
-Ensure mob packs are positioned perfectly to take advantage of Damage Dealer AoEs.


Meanwhile, the list of Damage Dealer responsibilities:
-Mash AoE.
-Don't stand in the bad.

And Healers:
-Mash AoE / ST nuke.
-Occasionally Curebomb the Tank.
-Sometimes Medica (or your regional equivalent) when AoE goes out.

Also, If Healers and Damage Dealers 'forget' to use a cooldown, no one notices.
Meanwhile, If the Tank 'forgets' to use Cooldowns, they die. Healers screech. Tank gets kicked for "Being bad".
Oh, and lets not forget that one wrong step from a Tank can cause a Cleave induced party wipe. No pressure though.

You're getting really aggressive for no good reason. Chill the fluff out.

Your lists break things down into much more detail for tanks than for healers or dps just to suit your narrative and it just makes your argument look weaker.

All you need to do as a tank is grab hate, keep it and rotate CDs when they're up. You don't need to memorize anything like enemy locations any more than healers or dps do.

You pull (in max level content at least) until you hit a wall, Sprint is all the mitigation you need for this. Pick up packs on the way with Overpower/your appropriate move.
If you have a competent WHM let Holy give you more or less total mitigation for 10secs, if not pop your strongest available CD.
If a lot of enemies are still alive pop another strong CD, if not pop a weaker one or even Conva to help your healer being you back up.

Repeat.

No one in a dungeon has a "hard" job since dungeons are the simplest party content that exists. A tank doing poorly can be covered for by a bad healer just like a healer doing poorly can be covered for by a bad tank. If either of these people are so bad you can't continue kick and get a new one.

You're acting like tanks have it so bad when, at a high level at least, they're perhaps the most forgiving role.

Now if you want to act like an entitled princess and pull one pack at a time that bad decision is on you and if you earm a kick for that choice that is also on you. We are all only responsible for our own decisions, make bad ones and sometimes you'll encounter consequences.

Edit: Also maybe you'd feel more responsibility as a healer if (hypothetically) you effectively leveraged the amazing AoE damage tools available to you. If you aren't already. There is no way to know for sure, obviously.

[Sylve]

You're acting like tanks have it so bad when, at a high level at least, they're perhaps the most forgiving role.

If they were truly the most forgiving role and not inherently more difficult to play properly, why are Tanks so rare that they need to be bribed with extra rewards like mounts and the In Need bonuses?
I'll give you a hint. Its because the role has more pressure on its performance than the other roles.
Its also other players that play a role in that increased pressure.
A missed cooldown on a Tank can be fatal. A missed cooldown from a Healer or DD has zero impact.

Now if you want to act like an entitled princess and pull one pack at a time that bad decision is on you and if you earm a kick for that choice that is also on you. We are all only responsible for our own decisions, make bad ones and sometimes you'll encounter consequences.

Let me make this even more clear to you:
The only 'crime' of pulling smaller is a slightly slower run.
The only 'crime' in min ilvl or imperfect play from a Damage Dealer is a slightly slower run.

Kicking players for their DPS is against the ToS as a form of harassment, Yet kicking a Tank for not pulling as many trash mobs at once as you want them to is grounds for kicking?
Despite that in both scenarios the result is identical. A slightly slower run.
Do you kick players for requesting a moment of AFK to attend to something in IRL for 'wasting' your time? They're slowing down your run and wasting your precious time!

If you want to impose a particular method of clearing, use the PF to find like minded individuals. Otherwise, suck it up that you chose the convenience of a random group over the control of making your own.

[WaterShield]

If they were truly the most forgiving role and not inherently more difficult to play properly, why are Tanks so rare that they need to be bribed with extra rewards like mounts and the In Need bonuses?
I'll give you a hint. Its because the role has more pressure on its performance than the other roles.
Its also other players that play a role in that increased pressure.
A missed cooldown on a Tank can be fatal. A missed cooldown from a Healer or DD has zero impact.



Let me make this even more clear to you:
The only 'crime' of pulling smaller is a slightly slower run.
The only 'crime' in min ilvl or imperfect play from a Damage Dealer is a slightly slower run.

Kicking players for their DPS is against the ToS as a form of harassment, Yet kicking a Tank for not pulling as many trash mobs at once as you want them to is grounds for kicking?
Despite that in both scenarios the result is identical. A slightly slower run.
Do you kick players for requesting a moment of AFK to attend to something in IRL for 'wasting' your time? They're slowing down your run and wasting your precious time!

If you want to impose a particular method of clearing, use the PF to find like minded individuals. Otherwise, suck it up that you chose the convenience of a random group over the control of making your own.

Because it's easy and boring? Where do people get off thinking tanking in this game is hard?

[Physic]

Because it's easy and boring? Where do people get off thinking tanking in this game is hard?

its easy and boring in the micro. It would probably be a bit more interesting tactically if they had more complex dungeons. Its pretty interesting in high hoh.

however, there is a lot more pressure and its more taxing even in low level stuff. You are basically the most responsible for fails, and you need the most knowledge of the dungeon, the fights, maintaining high level gear is more important. Lives are in your hands