Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Granyala]

I don't know their best but I know that with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic that I shouldn't see some of the poor play that I do.

I expect with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic, school mathematics should be a problem for no one.
Yet I have met people with dyscalculia that cannot reliably perform simple arithmetic operations no matter how hard they try.

We are talking about the 4 basic math operations here, if we have to baby people enough that the most basic things are considered a skill then the skill requirement is ZERO.
Yeah, we do that plenty IRL.

Why should we behave so differently in video games meant to entertain and relax?

[ReiMakoto]

I expect with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic, school mathematics should be a problem for no one.
Yet I have met people with dyscalculia that cannot reliably perform simple arithmetic operations no matter how hard they try.

We are talking about the 4 basic math operations here, if we have to baby people enough that the most basic things are considered a skill then the skill requirement is ZERO.
Yeah, we do that plenty IRL.

Why should we behave so differently in video games meant to entertain and relax?

As someone with learning difficulties, this is incredibly patronising to say we should baby people through things and let them play however they like to make them feel good. No one wants to feel like they are a detriment to other people, which is what you are being if you don't learn or play your class with base competence. People with learning difficulties don't need to be babied through, they need to be taught differently. The dungeon isn't necessarily the place to do that teaching, but letting someone know they are inhibiting the enjoyment of others and they should learn some basics (like using aoe or pulling big) isn't elitist, its common courtesy and you should push them to learn. Having a learning disability doesn't make having a grasp of the basics (which is what we're talking about here) unattainable.

[Physic]

As someone with learning difficulties, this is incredibly patronising to say we should baby people through things and let them play however they like to make them feel good. No one wants to feel like they are a detriment to other people, which is what you are being if you don't learn or play your class with base competence. People with learning difficulties don't need to be babied through, they need to be taught differently. The dungeon isn't necessarily the place to do that teaching, but letting someone know they are inhibiting the enjoyment of others and they should learn some basics (like using aoe or pulling big) isn't elitist, its common courtesy and you should push them to learn. Having a learning disability doesn't make having a grasp of the basics (which is what we're talking about here) unattainable.

The reality is disability isnt needed to make this argument. You dont have to be disabled not to be above average at this content. You can be undergeared, under experienced, or simply not have a prediliction for high effeciency playstyles.

I am not sure why people think it is their duty to point out and correct non hyper effecient play in basic dungeons. What makes you think they want or desire your coaching on how to play more effeciently? Is it even worth the effort to spend time and energy explaining time attack strategies in a random dungeon group when no one has asked for tips on playing their role?

it makes sense if some one has expressed interest in feedback, but outside of that its not really anyones duty to force hyper effeciency.

[ReiMakoto]

The reality is disability isnt needed to make this argument. You dont have to be disabled not to be above average at this content. You can be undergeared, under experienced, or simply not have a prediliction for high effeciency playstyles.

I am not sure why people think it is their duty to point out and correct non hyper effecient play in basic dungeons. What makes you think they want or desire your coaching on how to play more effeciently? Is it even worth the effort to spend time and energy explaining time attack strategies in a random dungeon group when no one has asked for tips on playing their role?

it makes sense if some one has expressed interest in feedback, but outside of that its not really anyones duty to force hyper effeciency.

We arn't talking about hyper efficiency, we're talking about basic competence in pressing your aoe buttons and pulling big, I don't give a damn about the numbers you're putting out so long as you're actually trying. I know I never would have gotten good at this game without advice from vets in dungeons either. Also we've spoken to you before about this, outside of a leveling dungeon, large pulls are always just objectively better, and so is pressing your aoe when there's 3+ targets, its not about ultra high efficiency, its about basic competence.

[Physic]

We arn't talking about hyper efficiency, we're talking about basic competence in pressing your aoe buttons and pulling big, I don't give a damn about the numbers you're putting out so long as you're actually trying. I know I never would have gotten good at this game without advice from vets in dungeons either. Also we've spoken to you before about this, outside of a leveling dungeon, large pulls are always just objectively better, and so is pressing your aoe when there's 3+ targets, its not about ultra high efficiency, its about basic competence.

Out the gate i am going to tell you leveling dungeons are no different than any other dungeon for some one at ilevel. People at minimum ilevel are usually going to be the ones afraid of big pulls. People at ilevel will be grouped with people not at ilevel.

2nd what i am telling you is that your standard of what is basic competence is subjective, and based on an educated guess based on our other conversations And your profile, your subjective standard is probably high.

you have like 17 level 70 charachters, you find dungeons to be extremely easy throw away content, you love to focus primarily on high end raids. If you are used to savage content, you are probably of a mindstate that prefers pushing limits, over merely passing. Your general mindstate, and way of thinking about and interacting with this game is probably only a representation of how 5% or less see and interact with the game.

you are unlikely to have a fair subjective view of what a passing grade on a basic dungeon is.


i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes

[cicatriz313]

SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

It is. But when looking at time to kill if the time still takes longer than you could of killed 3 separate packs then it is a net loss in efficiency. It also assumes that the aoes are hitting all targets and we know that does not always happen. So again it is not a one size fits all scenario. I have no problem with large pulls or smalls. Making things go boom is what I do unless I am healing. We are talking about the aggressive behavior that comes from some players because optimal isn’t happening and treating people like robots. You can not ignore the human component. Even the best screw up.

Well that's a completely different argument than you were making before lol. You said specifically you were not getting more damage in potency which... you are. No matter how you look at it. And is it possible for large groups to die slower than 3 separate pulls? There's a chance, sure. But I would argue in MOST cases, like 95+% of cases it's significantly faster to kill in a large group because every gcd you're spending is hitting that many more mobs, and then you have to worry about ramp up time for a lot of jobs. Then you take into account things like blood accumulation on drk, shield swipe on pld, being able to spend all your ogcds in one pull rather than waiting between 3 pulls etc. There are way more reasons to do large pulls when adequately geared than there is not to. That's why it's the norm. Also if you're betting on people to screw up, efficiency isn't even part of the discussion.

[Feidam]

SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

Having expectations isn’t elitist. How you behave with those expectations is what becomes elitist and toxic. There are and will be below average players always. They however should not be mistreat in the base content. As we hit extremes and savage etc then we can weed people out. Maybe what we need are extreme lvl dungeons! Those could be fun.

[Physic]

SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

kicking should not be based on the meta, it should be based on edge cases. You should not be kicking people for being just below average. My 5% comment had nothing to do with toxicity, it has to do with subjectivity and expectation. I'm saying, i am a big guy, how easy i think it is to open a jar is probably not the same as 12 year old girl. People seem to forget that kicking people is a punishment. You shouldnt be punishing people for being average.

[AnnaRosa]

i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes

Actually did read one article about one research made by Dr Alejandro Lleras from the University of Illinois that could prove our brain can not be truly focused in one single task for long period which comes to confirm the Pomodoro technique from Frascenco Cirillo to set a timer for one task in order for a better productive time being that time 30 minutes with 5 minutes break for even work and study.

Of course the Pomodoro technique is more developed because it involve to discover the physical and mental work for each different person preform the same task in a per-determined time (25 minutes).

Amazing now you mentioned even at that SE had the courtesy to help their players.

[ReiMakoto]

Out the gate i am going to tell you leveling dungeons are no different than any other dungeon for some one at ilevel. People at minimum ilevel are usually going to be the ones afraid of big pulls. People at ilevel will be grouped with people not at ilevel.

2nd what i am telling you is that your standard of what is basic competence is subjective, and based on an educated guess based on our other conversations And your profile, your subjective standard is probably high.

you have like 17 level 70 charachters, you find dungeons to be extremely easy throw away content, you love to focus primarily on high end raids. If you are used to savage content, you are probably of a mindstate that prefers pushing limits, over merely passing. Your general mindstate, and way of thinking about and interacting with this game is probably only a representation of how 5% or less see and interact with the game.

you are unlikely to have a fair subjective view of what a passing grade on a basic dungeon is.


i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes

Leveling dungeons arnt the same as all the other ones at ilvl though, especially some of the pre 50 dungeons, theres no gating on pulls at all so even at highest ilvl i wouldnt reccommend mass pulling. Everything that does have gating should at least be attempted to be pulled to the wall. As ive said before, my standards arn't high for dungeons, i just want dps to aoe, tanks to pulls as much as they can (determined by pulling everything you can im gated pull dungeons, and if you die, trying again with less), and healers as least trying to do some damage while keeping the tank alive. Communication is key in these situations.

Also i love how youre telling me how i think about things, I guess youre just a master person reader.