Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Physic]

The Burn is a level 70 dungeon.
It isn't elitist to expect some of the most basic stuff.
The party finder is irreverent.
I expect some skill of level 70s, even in leveling/story dungeons.

level 70 doesnt mean they know the dungeon, it doesnt mean they are well geared. It is not basic stuff. Its a style choice on how they prefer to fight the enemies. Some people hate big pulls, some people love big pulls. Big pulls are faster, they are also more chaotic.

Also they have auto level potions, HoH, Potd, squadrons, sidequests. Level means nothing in terms of skill.

really, why are you using duty finder if you want to avoid getting a random slow player? Why not filter out slow players ahead of time? Why is the slow player penalized because you expected more out of him than duty finder told you to?

[WaterShield]

I know my class but you sound like someone really unpleasant to play with. I'd much rather play with someone nice but not all that good then someone who good but rude.

So, does that mean you would kick them?

For me it comes down to this. Are they trying? Can DPS hit aoe button? Can healer use something besides basic GCD single target heals? (like a cooldown) Can tank pull wall to wall (at endgame dungeons, leveling is a different story) and then hold aggro? (don't even care if he stays in tank stance or not) If the tank is under geared for the endgame dungeon (why u do dis????) then that can be adjusted slightly.

If they can do these things than they are doing the basics and get a pass. There is alot of room past these points for people to be "leet". I do not see how any of this criteria would be picking on "casuals" because the vast majority of people I run random duty finder content with, are capable of at least that much.

Level 70 is NOT a new player. As far as why we don't have many tank players.... has anyone stopped to consider that it might actually be boring. Seriously, it's the easiest role to play (my opinion) so I refuse to main it, because I'll fall asleep at the keyboard otherwise.

How about we ask people to not be exceptionally rude, or exceptionally lazy. Gotta respect peoples time, we don't get enough of it in life to waste.

[Awha]

not really, because its his role. Ultimately as long as his playstyle is a winning one, kicking him is somewhat abusive. No player is an npc, controlled by the will of the other 3.

lets look at it this way.

4 people pay for a shared cab. They find out 1 person's destination will make the trip 15% slower. They demand he get off 5 blocks away, or they will kick him out the cab.

1)why are people choosing to ride share if they can't accept some people's location?
2)why is it riteous that 3 people get to decide where he gets off, for thier own benefit?
3)why is it he has to pay extra, even though he is the one properly using the ride sharing cab?

yes, 3 people are slightly inconvienced by his stop, but if they didnt want random locations they should not be taking random extra passengers and kicking them out, after they pay.

they are more wrong because they are against the spirit of the duty finder, and because they are making him pay for thier error (joining a random queue with specific demands)

Is it fair?

While I am no ride share expert, have only done it three times, from my experience when using ride share each passengers route is on the way no real deviations were ever made. Never ran into the case where someones location was random in the sense that it was not along the same or similar route. So the three in question did not have to alter their plans in any great way. (Might have been luck) not sure how that equates to the same situation.

Where did he 15% extra time come from? If I took part in ride share and three people found out the fourths ride required the driver to take a different route that deviated from their destination or the person willingly wanted to take forever to get out of the car taking micro steps then yeah I do think they would be within their right to be annoyed. Now if some outside factor caused the delay such as an accident caused by speeding, or the person had a hard time getting out of the car for whatever reason. That is a different story.

LOL though if ride share did have a vote system that was based off the majority pretty sure some would have exercised their right to try and vote the fourth out.

[Physic]

So, does that mean you would kick them?

For me it comes down to this. Are they trying? Can DPS hit aoe button? Can healer use something besides basic GCD single target heals? (like a cooldown) Can take pull wall to wall (at endgame dungeons, leveling is a different story) and then hold aggro? (don't even care if he stays in tank stance) If the tank is under geared for the endgame dungeon (why u do dis????) then that can be adjusted slightly.

If they can do these things than they are doing the basics and get a pass. There is alot of room past these points for people to be "leet". I do not see how any of this criteria would be picking on "casuals" because the vast majority of people I run random duty finder content with, are capable of at least that much.

How about we ask people to not be exceptionally rude, or exceptionally lazy. Gotta respect peoples time, we don't get enough of it in life to waste.

there is no endgame dungeon. They are all progression or sidequest dungeons. There is no undergeared, they have an ilevel requirement. You are likely overgeared. The vast majority of people you play with are not casuals, most people have a lot of experience. The players who arent that good/low ilevel? are generally the people who are more casual, inexperienced, or whatever you want to call it.

basically its most likely not that they are lazy, its that they are not that experienced or skillfull. Duty finder is made for them. Roulette is made so that there is a large number of players of all skil levels so people can complete content.

[van_arn]

there is no endgame dungeon. They are all progression or sidequest dungeons. There is no undergeared, they have an ilevel requirement. You are likely overgeared. The vast majority of people you play with are not casuals, most people have a lot of experience. The players who arent that good/low ilevel? are generally the people who are more casual, inexperienced, or whatever you want to call it.

basically its most likely not that they are lazy, its that they are not that experienced or skillfull. Duty finder is made for them. Roulette is made so that there is a large number of players of all skil levels so people can complete content.

The Burn has an ilvl requirement of 340, a fresh 70 is given 290 gear if they bother to do the class quest. Furthermore, it is gated by the MSQ in such a way that the game is certain the player knows how to push buttons.

By the time a player can meet those gear requirements and gain access, then they have no excuse to not know the basics of the job they are playing.

If they were *given* crafted gear, then they get to learn by a trial by fire. And it is perfectly fine if they keep getting kicked until they learn the basics of their role.

That all aside, the fact remains that if a party doesn't want the bumbling idiot that somehow still doesn't know how fill the role they queued in for, then the party has every right to fire them and replace them with someone that can do their advertised job.

And you can't stop them.

[KingFrost]

The essentials of big pulls?

[Physic]

While I am no ride share expert, have only done it three times, from my experience when using ride share each passengers route is normally on the way no real deviations were ever made, (Might have been luck) not sure how that equates to the same situation. If I took part in ride share and three people found out the fourths ride required the driver to take a different route that deviated from their destination then yeah I do think they would be within their right to be annoyed.

it was an example, the real rules of ride share was not the point.

the point is every one has to pay up front before getting a group, in time. Everyone pays extra time until the conflict occurs.
one guy wants to continue to play in a way that is consistent with design of the game
other guys want to play in a different way that is also consistent

why do the other guys get to choose to waste the other guy's initial investment, when no ones initial investment needs to be wasted?

what is fair about 3 people punishing one guy, simply because they disagree on how fast he should do his job?

Majority opinion is not necessarily the correct stance.

[Feidam]

The Burn has an ilvl requirement of 340, a fresh 70 is given 290 gear if they bother to do the class quest. Furthermore, it is gated by the MSQ in such a way that the game is certain the player knows how to push buttons.

By the time a player can meet those gear requirements and gain access, then they have no excuse to not know the basics of the job they are playing.

If they were *given* crafted gear, then they get to learn by a trial by fire. And they should repeatedly get kicked if they somehow haven't figured out the essentials by then.

That all aside, the fact remains that if a party doesn't want the bumbling idiot that somehow still doesn't know how fill the role they queued in for, then the party has every right to fire them and replace them with someone that can do their job.

And you can't stop them.

Not necessarily. At this point is possible to purchase a full set of gear or have a guild be kind and craft you one. So it’s quite easy to get to ilvl380 with little to no effort. And your trial by fire that includes repeatedly kicking them isn’t really conducive to learning and just perpetuates the problem. Fortunately in my experience most players don’t just kick folks unless it was a party finder party they lied their way into.

[Hash_Browns]

level 70 doesnt mean they know the dungeon, it doesnt mean they are well geared. It is not basic stuff. Its a style choice on how they prefer to fight the enemies. Some people hate big pulls, some people love big pulls. Big pulls are faster, they are also more chaotic.

Also they have auto level potions, HoH, Potd, squadrons, sidequests. Level means nothing in terms of skill.

really, why are you using duty finder if you want to avoid getting a random slow player? Why not filter out slow players ahead of time? Why is the slow player penalized because you expected more out of him than duty finder told you to?

You're right. I take it back.
Everyone should be treated like they just started the game because we have auto-level potions & skip potions.

Let's not take into account the fact that the tank would have to level form 60 to 70 still.
Let's not take into account that The Burn requires you to have an iLvl of 340 minimum - more then enough to complete The Burn.
Let's not take into account that The Burn requires you to play a significant amount of content to even access it.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to coddle people who decide to use level skipping potions, or story skipping potions, and I'm not going to coddle people who can't do the most basic of functions for their class that they should have learned by level 50.

I refuse to set the bar so low that it becomes "hold aggro & auto attack 4 enemies" for level 70 content.

Not necessarily. At this point is possible to purchase a full set of gear or have a guild be kind and craft you one. So it’s quite easy to get to ilvl380 with little to no effort. And your trial by fire that includes repeatedly kicking them isn’t really conducive to learning and just perpetuates the problem. Fortunately in my experience most players don’t just kick folks unless it was a party finder party they lied their way into.

When you get lazy, and get gifted/buy iLvl380 gear, and can't even be bothered to pull more then 4 enemies in a dungeon where the iLvl requirement is 340, and that's more then enough - it's laziness.

[van_arn]

Not necessarily. At this point is possible to purchase a full set of gear or have a guild be kind and craft you one. So it’s quite easy to get to ilvl380 with little to no effort. And your trial by fire that includes repeatedly kicking them isn’t really conducive to learning.

Possible isn't likely. And the player that can put in the effort to obtain that gear through the marketboard can put in the effort to learn their job without going potato.

If the gear is given to them, then they have friends that can teach them how to play. Without making a df group suffer.

But df groups don't need to suffer, they can always kick.

You're right. I take it back.
Everyone should be treated like they just started the game because we have auto-level potions & skip potions.

Let's not take into account the fact that the tank would have to level form 60 to 70 still.
Let's not take into account that The Burn requires you to have an iLvl of 340 minimum - more then enough to complete The Burn.
Let's not take into account that The Burn requires you to play a significant amount of content to even access it.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to coddle people who decide to use level skipping potions, or story skipping potions, and I'm not going to coddle people who can't do the most basic of functions for their class that they should have learned by level 50.

I refuse to set the bar so low that it becomes "hold aggro & auto attack 4 enemies" for level 70 content.

Freaking amen.