Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[FFgame]

I kick politely. Stop spreading toxicity @70 by being bad.

[Awha]

Kindness and civility should be the base line for a game where you interact with other people

Wouldn't the kind and civil thing to do at the very least try? Sure it might go wrong, but if the tank used their cooldowns properly nothing bad would have happened, and even if the tank does not use cooldowns I am sure the healer had faith in their own ability and the ability of the dps to make quick work of the pull. As someone else mentioned I doubt any reasonable person would ask a tank to do something that they knowingly would lead to a wipe.

The reality is if the healer and dps are good enough and the tank at the very least is properly geared and maintains aggro during the large pull the group can get by. Do not get me wrong it makes it easier if the tank uses cooldowns properly but it is not something the over three are unable to overcompensate for.

Being civil and kind is a two way street. I do not think someone expecting another player to try and adapt to the groups pace be it if the group wants large or smaller pulls is not kind or civil, I think someone who digs their heels in the group and refuses what the group wants because lack of desire, or will does show a lack of kindness and civility.

[Jeeqbit]

As someone who has mained a PLD for over 4 years, I can clearly answer this for you.

If a tank does not want to do big pulls, that's up to them. If you want big pulls, then main a tank yourself. I personally feel that small pulls are boring regardless of if I am tanking, healing or DPSing, but it is the tank that gets to decide that so deal with it.

Please remember that in many cases a tank is completely new to a dungeon. They have not even completed the map. How can they be expected to do a big pull when they don't even know where to run nor what enemies they will encounter and what tankbusters they may or may not do? When I was new to a lot of level 50 dungeons years ago everyone would demand big pulls from me despite that it was impossible because I didn't have the map completed. I had to cope with a lot of criticism and ragequits that ruined my day.

If you want to set the pace of the run without being the tank, then setup your own party either with friends or in Party Finder, specifically requesting that the tank pace the run a certain way. Otherwise, deal with what you get in Duty Finder.

Personally, I take the view that there are a lot of roulettes for people to get through and as I get to decide whether the run is 16 minutes or 50 minutes, I choose to make it as efficient as I can for them by doing big pulls and DPSing bosses in all but leveling dungeons which are too heavily synced to be worth it. But it's the tank's choice.

Tanks have a lot of jobs the DPS don't have - enemy positioning, enmity management, cooldown management, tank busters, tank swaps, watching the groups health incase they need to adjust based on that - all whilst doing what DPS do... avoid things, DPS and hit damage cooldowns. It's an underappreciated role. As a tank 50% of people want you to do big pulls and 50% of people want you to do small pulls. 50% of people like you stance dancing and the other 50% will berate you for not being in tank stance, especially on EU DC. Tank life is a hard life.

Just like a tank shouldn't be removed for refusing to do big pulls, a healer shouldn't be removed for refusing to DPS and a DPS shouldn't be removed for refusing to AOE. It's their choice not to do these things if you were randomly matched with them in DF. If you created a Party Finder party and said they must do these things in the description, then it's different and you are then right to kick them if they don't.

[Physic]

I'm being blunt, not rude.
I ain't interested in people who are lazy for the sake of being lazy.

Kindness has nothing to do with this.
I ain't gonna be rude when I ask a tank to tank, but I ain't gonna take their crap either.

you should not rope newbies and slow players into playing with you then, since you have extra requirements. Its not a time attack queue. You are taking advantage of a system made for the lowest common denominator in skill. This is something people attempt story and gear progression with. People who dont have friends or premades to do the content with. And you are victimizing them because you don't like their existence, and you want quick queues.

Nobody signed up for a queue so that you could grade their performance and waste their time based on your whims.

[Hash_Browns]

you should not rope newbies and slow players into playing with you then, since you have extra requirements. Its not a time attack queue. You are taking advantage of a system made for the lowest common denominator in skill. This is something people attempt story and gear progression with. People who dont have friends or premades to do the content with. And you are victimizing them because you don't like their existence, and you want quick queues.

Nobody signed up for a queue so that you could grade their performance and waste their time based on your whims.

You keep using "new player" like it applies to this situation.

As I have said, I don't care if a person who is new to the dungeon, or new to tanking pulls small groups, but I'm not going to give the level 70 WAR/PLD/DRK who queues up in The Burn because they click "Duty Roulette: Expert" a free pass.

[Physic]

Wouldn't the kind and civil thing to do at the very least try? Sure it might go wrong, but if the tank used their cooldowns properly nothing bad would have happened, and even if the tank does not use cooldowns I am sure the healer had faith in their own ability and the ability of the dps to make quick work of the pull. As someone else mentioned I doubt any reasonable person would ask a tank to do something that they knowingly would lead to a wipe.

The reality is if the healer and dps are good enough and the tank at the very least is properly geared and maintains aggro during the large pull the group can get by. Do not get me wrong it makes it easier if the tank uses cooldowns properly but it is not something the over three are unable to overcompensate for.

Being civil and kind is a two way street. I do not think someone expecting another player to try and adapt to the groups pace be it if the group wants large or smaller pulls is not kind or civil, I think someone who digs their heels in the group and refuses what the group wants because lack of desire, or will does show a lack of kindness and civility.

not really, because its his role. Ultimately as long as his playstyle is a winning one, kicking him is somewhat abusive. No player is an npc, controlled by the will of the other 3.

lets look at it this way.

4 people pay for a shared cab. They find out 1 person's destination will make the trip 15% slower. They demand he get off 5 blocks away, or they will kick him out the cab.

1)why are people choosing to ride share if they can't accept some people's location?
2)why is it riteous that 3 people get to decide where he gets off, for thier own benefit?
3)why is it he has to pay extra, even though he is the one properly using the ride sharing cab?

yes, 3 people are slightly inconvienced by his stop, but if they didnt want random locations they should not be taking random extra passengers and kicking them out, after they pay.

they are more wrong because they are against the spirit of the duty finder, and because they are making him pay for thier error (joining a random queue with specific demands)

Is it fair?

[Physic]

You keep using "new player" like it applies to this situation.

As I have said, I don't care if a person who is new to the dungeon, or new to tanking pulls small groups, but I'm not going to give the level 70 WAR/PLD/DRK who queues up in The Burn because they click "Duty Roulette: Expert" a free pass.

you have no idea why they queued up. Duty Roulette users are paired with any one seeking to complete that dungeon. This is intentional, roulette's exist to give people who don't need the content reasons to help those who do need the content. The burn is a mainstory quest dungeon, which is required to progress in the game.

congratulations on preventing people from getting to shadow bringers because they are not elite enough for you.

even if they have completed it, and are doing expert for the genesis, not sure why you expect them to be great it, to the point you kick them if they are not.

This is not a time attack queue, the main purpose of regular duty finder is for people without friends available, to be able to complete content. Your behavior works against that. There is party finder for people who expect more of their groups for that very reason.

[KingFrost]

Aren't "small" pulls just... ya know... regular pulls?

Also, what's actually being considered as bad in this thread? Doing regular pulls? Really? Out of all the things a tank can fail at, not pulling huge seems so insignificant to me.

I understand wanting to save time, but I'd never kick over this. I'd just enjoy my single target rotation and move on with having fun in the dungeon.

[Hash_Browns]

you have no idea why they queued up. Duty Roulette users are paired with any one seeking to complete that dungeon. This is intentional, roulette's exist to give people who don't need the content reasons to help those who do need the content. The burn is a mainstory quest dungeon, which is required to progress in the game.

congratulations on preventing people from getting to shadow bringers because they are not elite enough for you.

This is not a time attack queue, the main purpose of regular duty finder is for people without friends available, to be able to complete content. Your behavior works against that. There is party finder for people who expect more of their groups for that very reason.

The Burn is a level 70 dungeon.
It isn't elitist to expect some of the most basic stuff.
The party finder is irreverent.
I expect some skill of level 70s, even in leveling/story dungeons.

[Gemina]

Sorry, by the what if statements I more so meant as a group should we base our judgement of a player around unseen factors? Or should we assume such factors off the bat and proceed accordingly?

Reason I ask is because I tend to treat people as I would not mind being treated, but as I have noticed that has lead to some interesting encounters because how I am okay with being treated seems to differ from the general soical or communally norms.

For future reference since I do not wish to cause players unnecessary grief do you think instead of using my level of tolerance as a baseline should I go based off some other metric? If so what would you suggest?

No worries about the what-ifs

Much like you, I was raised to treat others as I wish to be treated. To be polite, kind, and courteous towards others. I believe if everyone was like this, the world we live in would be more just, and threads like this would not exist.

Sadly, the world is cruel, and people are cruel. It is not kind, or just, or fair. Despite this, it doesn't and never will change the respect and kindness I will initially show towards others. Only when people show a lack of courtesy and respect will I return it in kind. So to directly answer your question, I am going to say no. The moment we give into defeatism, we're no better than those who are selfish and only care about their own gains in this world. It is absolute that I will be disappointed time and time again by remaining tolerant, I don't care. I refuse to change who I am, and start stepping on others to gain ground.

Tankxiety is a real thing. It does not matter how easy or difficult it actually is. It's easy for one person to get into a hot air balloon as well, but if I do it I will start freaking out as soon as it gets to a height where falling would cause injury or death. The mind is so powerful. It can cripple someone who isn't even in a threatening situation. I know this from my own experience, and I will never underestimate how it can affect others. I would never, ever try to get someone to do something they are not comfortable with. I might try to encourage them through ensuring their safety, but that is about as far as it goes.